1: How to Make Bold Decisions

[00:00:00] Speaker A: There's this aspect to who you are as a person that I find compelling and fascinating. And I was wondering if we could unpack it just a little bit. And maybe you see yourself differently than I see you in this regard too. But I witness you as someone who is willing, historically and currently, to make pretty significant shifts in your life that to the average Joe, would feel quite dramatic and also engage sort of significant processes around cultivating this change. So when I first got to know you, it felt like every time I met you, met with you, you were telling me about some like ceremony or ritual or book or process or challenge that you were engaging to sort of, I don't know, cultivate a new level of growth. And I always found this fascinating and compelling because it seemed like you have, like a certain level of discipline in this area that I don't know that I have strategically or that I don't do strategically in my life. So I was wondering first, is that how you've always been the. [00:01:09] Speaker B: Making significant changes or the processes around them or both? [00:01:13] Speaker A: Both, yeah. [00:01:14] Speaker B: I think so, probably. But the I. The process around it has gotten more intense since I discovered that. That's a particular gift of mine to create kind of a process around things like to get from A to B. I don't know that growing up, I realized that I could come up with a process to achieve transformation or achieve a change or to achieve a manifestation or something like that. Um, but I would say the big shifts became more prevalent in my twenties and less so before that. [00:01:50] Speaker A: Okay, so what happened in your 20s that like, spurred that? [00:01:54] Speaker B: Oh, that's a good question. I think I hit a tipping point of being so. It was like I couldn't self abandon anymore. I. I had gotten. I become so disconnected from, I think, my truth, that that feeling was so terrible. And then when I would start to experiment with following my intuition and feeling a relief of tension and a relief of dis. Ease, even if that. Even if what my intuition was guiding me to do was insane. Yeah. It was better to experience that sort of feeling of falling out of an airplane with an insane decision than it was to be in conflict with myself. Like, that feeling became terrible. [00:02:51] Speaker A: Do you remember? Like, is there like a tipping point experience where you made that choice and that like, you started to recognize that that like, stepping into that risk felt better? [00:03:04] Speaker B: Well, I think that. I think that with my first marriage, I took a big leap with that because my intuition was telling me that I should get married. But my whole. My parents were very, very against it. They didn't want me to get married. They thought it was too young. So I think my first. I got married at 21. [00:03:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:23] Speaker B: And that was. I think that was a big shift. I started making that. Those shifts and listening to myself. I think once I got out of the house of my parents because I could just hear my own voice more and I started following my intuition more. At the same time I was still, I would say like probably 50, 60% of the time gaslighting myself. Because when you grow up being gaslit, you take on that inner voice of gaslighting. And I, I. Anytime I felt a difficult emotion, I was convincing myself out of it. Anytime my body was saying like this doesn't feel right, I was convincing myself it should feel right. Just all the things. I wasn't listening to my body at all. And then I actually think it was getting divorced from that marriage that really shifted things in terms of trusting my intuition and all of the big leaps that I've taken, which there have been an abnormal amount unusual. There have been an. Yeah, I guess an unusual amount comparatively just have all come from my intuition. And there's a. I think there's just something in me that. That has become like I absolutely refuse to. To self abandon again. [00:04:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:52] Speaker B: And I found like now after thousands of times small and big leaps that I always ultimately feel better when I follow it. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:03] Speaker B: Like 100 of the time. There's literally not one time that I didn't feel better on the other side of following my intuition. Yes. Like sometimes following my intuition will mean there's a fallout of something or, or there's difficulty up front. But I'm always so trusting that that's what I need to get to more joy on the other side. And then it, it happens like a hundred percent of the time. So it's like if you have an inner guide like that, which everyone does, if you have an inner guide like that, that you know 100% of the time has your best interest and knows you better than you know yourself. Why wouldn't you follow that? [00:05:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that there's like a. You know what you just said a few moments ago, you're like, even if it felt insane or crazy, like that's what I witness in you is a capacity to still move forward with that would. And I think that that's. I inevitably that has increased over time and that you are willing to both move forward but also sort of like support it with processes like with. You know. And that. That feels really. To me. There's a certain level of discipline within that that I think is really compelling to watch, where I'm like, you know, people talk about doing the quote unquote work, and I'm like, you should see what Stephanie does. You know, it's like, people like, I went to therapy and I took a bath and I'm like. I'm like, she's burning shit in her backyar. No, I'm just teasing a little bit, but I think there's a little bit. [00:06:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I was doing that in la. I mean, let's say in a very. [00:06:49] Speaker A: Safe way, in a container. Yeah. Fireproof container. But, yeah, but I really admire that in you. And I think that it's also there. There is this attitude that it has cultivated within you that has. I'm just, like, curious to see how. How you feel in that now. Like, does that, like, do you feel as bold as you look? [00:07:17] Speaker B: I will. I. I will say, like, a common problem that I have is that. And I've always had this problem is that when I reach some sort of an emotional breaking point and I tell someone and I'll be like, I've been. Yeah, I've been really struggling with this for a few weeks. They will tell me they had absolutely no idea and that it did not appear to them that I was struggling with anything at all. And, I mean, I think that was originally for two reasons, one of which is that I was. I. I didn't grow up in an environment where I was taught how to feel and process my emotions and how to ask for help. So I just learned how to take care of it myself. That was one thing. But the other, I think, is that. Is that I think I. There is some sort of an energy that's coming off around, like, a fearlessness, or she's got her shit together, she'll figure it out. Or she doesn't need the assistance because she has it. And I will, interestingly say, in the last couple of years, I have. I do. I have really cultivated that in myself. This energy of, like, I've got you. [00:08:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:26] Speaker B: For me. [00:08:27] Speaker A: Yep. [00:08:28] Speaker B: And I think that that's. I think everybody can cultivate that. [00:08:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:33] Speaker B: Ultimately, that. That sort of I've got you energy, and it's something that I work with my clients a lot on in terms of how to cultivate that in themselves. Not that we shouldn't ask for help, but there's a different level of confidence and boldness that comes when you know that you've got yourself. [00:08:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. There's that man that you're just making Me think I often that catch 22 of we are nothing if not in community and supported by others. Like that is such an essential part of survival as a human. And yet at the same time there's this reality that no one will ultimately be able to be there for you in the ways in which you want them to. [00:09:15] Speaker B: I love that you brought that up because that is actually something that's been revealed to me in the last year is that it's actually not a paradox like the. It's like the whole know thyself. The deeper that I've gone into devotion to myself, the more I felt unity with others. [00:09:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:37] Speaker B: And so the, the more that I have actually felt like I've. I've got myself and I've honored myself and I've not self abandoned and I've. I mean really, devotion is the word. Like the more I've just been devoted to myself, the more I've truly felt connected. Like I will sometimes not, you know, if I'm just working at home here in Austin and I go out and I, I don't see anyone in a day, I. That used to make me feel isolated, like, oh, I at least have to go to the store and like be around people. But now it's like I feel it in my body. I feel a oneness with everyone in my body. So even if I'm not directly in community, I feel a sense of community that I didn't get from actual community. I got from going deeper into myself. [00:10:25] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Yeah, I, I experienced that too. Like that there's this, I think. Well, I think some of this comes down to what you're expecting or needing of others in terms of support or like if you're going through something. Right. Because. Because I think what I'm was maybe trying to express is that people will disappoint you. Right. Like that there's not this. No one's going to say exactly what you need. No one's going to touch you in the exact right way. And, and you learn this as you lose people throughout time. Like you, you learn that. That you always were alone and that that is the path to interconnectedness. Like in. One of the things that you're saying too is something that I've embraced a lot more in my current life is solitude. Like, solitude feels really important to me because it feels like my path to deeper connection if I don't, if I don't have that. And actually I'll even say as a musician lately I have like been spending a lot of time not Listening to any music or any podcasts. I just kind of am in my car in the quiet or in my studio in the quiet. Like I'm really feeling aware of my need to shut off the noise so that I can be within. And there is this advantage that you're saying that comes with that where it's. There's a self assuredness that then when you actually do go into relationship, like actual in person relationship, you don't need from the other person something that they never could have given you to begin with. [00:11:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:49] Speaker A: And that fosters a deeper connection. [00:11:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:51] Speaker A: Does that make sense? [00:11:53] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, the way that I think about it is when I spend more time alone, particularly away from media, because I could be alone all day, but then be on my phone. [00:12:03] Speaker A: Yes. [00:12:05] Speaker B: And it won't feel like solitude, but when I get quiet, I hear myself more and that energy starts to fill up the space and that creates a sense of connection. And then it makes you less needy when you go into relationship. [00:12:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:24] Speaker B: And then when you're less needy, you can receive in a whole different way. [00:12:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:29] Speaker B: Because it's not a I need, it's like a I get to enjoy you. [00:12:35] Speaker A: Yep. [00:12:36] Speaker B: And also I think what you're saying though too is so foreign to so many people in terms of that is not something that most people do is get quiet. [00:12:47] Speaker A: Well, it's scary in there for a lot of folks, you know. Yeah, yeah. [00:12:50] Speaker B: It's uncomfortable. Yeah. [00:12:51] Speaker A: For good reason. You know, I always think like it's actually that's the thing, like even our phone and all these devices, they have been designed specifically to, you know, drown out our inner dialogue and drown out the noise that we're uncomfortable listening to. And I think that's kind of, you know, to just take us back a little bit. Like, I think that's kind of what I see in you is a willingness to engage that particularly around things that don't make sense. Like, you know, like moving, moving or you know, ending a well paying job or you know, starting a career that doesn't seem practical or like there are all these ways in which I know that you've walked the walk and that, you know, I've done some of too, that it is, it. It does require a certain level of self assuredness that can feel really risky at first, especially at first when you're doing, I think about, you know, know, for a lot of folks like this, one of the most obvious places that they'll encounter these sort of inclinations, but also the unwillingness to change is their work. And I, I always think, like I grew up with, my parents, were quite a bit older when they had me, and my mom specifically, you know, didn't understand why anyone would leave a job if they had a job. Like, yeah, that was very much the message, like, you've got a job, stay there. That's the only, that's like your only goal is just to stay in that job. And you know, early on I was like, well, I'm not happy. Why wouldn't I try to go to another job? But I remember thinking that, like, I had really explicitly been given that narrative that it was risky just to even leave a job. So that first job that I left, it was with no sort of support. Like I had to do it just because I felt inclined to do it. And that at the time that felt like a big deal. Now, ironically, it wasn't at all like, you know, we're talking about really low paying salary, but as an early 20, something that felt like my livelihood was at stake in doing that. And so that's a big, in my mind, like a big risk that I took early on that was so counter to the narrative that I was given, but was really honoring that, that sense of self within. And then momentum grows around that. [00:15:12] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:13] Speaker A: My experience. [00:15:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And I like that you brought that forward too. Because I think sometimes people have an intuition. I mean, I see this in my clients all the time where they have an intuition to do something. And maybe actually to other people it doesn't sound insane, but to them it's counter to one of their narratives or their belief structures growing up. And so it feels insane in their body. And in fact, they could even say, yeah, this is logical. I know this is logical, but there's still a nervous system response. [00:15:45] Speaker A: Yes. [00:15:46] Speaker B: That they're having difficulty overcoming. Yeah. I mean, a lot of what I tell them to do is like, start smaller than. And like you're like, you're saying like start, start building momentum, but I mean to bring it back to the, the processes around things. Like, I think that. Well, before I say that, something that has come to me is when I make big choices or insane choices because I have made so many that many people have told me were insane. I feel, I feel supported metaphysically. [00:16:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:23] Speaker B: Like, I feel like if my intuition is guiding me to do this, I'm going to be supported all the way. [00:16:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:30] Speaker B: And it doesn't make it less hard sometimes, but I think without that, if I didn't have a connection to my intuition and I was just kind of trying to make decisions like, okay, is this a right or wrong decision? I'm going to make, like my pro con list and I'm going to, like, talk to everyone I know and I'm going to try and figure it out. It would be a hundred thousand times harder to make bold choices because who the fuck knows. [00:16:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:59] Speaker B: How that's going to turn out. Like, who knows how that's going to turn out. [00:17:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Are you familiar with Ellen Langer? She has this book called the Mindful Body. She's a researcher out of Harvard, but she's kind of on the podcast circuit these days. She's very entertaining to listen to. She's done all this research on like, basically like on. On mindfulness. But she doesn't talk about it in terms of meditation. It's just about, like, awareness essentially. But one of her hallmarks of her work is around decision making and mindful awareness and decision making. And one of the things that she said is there are no right decisions. There are only decisions that you make. Right. And I think about that a lot because she said, basically we're all collecting data all the time to support what we already know that we want. And it never ultimately will make sense to everyone else, like people all the time. And we walk around believing that we're rational. Like, if I could just gather, like if I could get this study or if I could get this thing. And the bottom line is, is it's. It's really more of a sliding doors situation, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow, like, it's really like that. That decision, it can really change your life. It can really point you in a different direction. But it also has a lot to do with your ability to take ownership over the decision or the change that you've made. And it's not like, make the best of a bad situation, but really take ownership that you made the decision for a reason, because it was something within you that thought it was the right decision, even if it seemed fundamentally crazy or insane or wrong to other people. And basically, one of the things that she sort of offers is that we spend way too much time trying to gather data. Because when we're gathering data, what we're doing is we're just trying to reinforce what we already know and believe that might be important for people as a part of their process, but it's generally not as influential as we like to convince ourselves that it is. We often already have the instinct to the knowing within us that's going to be the right decision for us. So I've been trying to Give myself permission to, you know, follow that more. Which I think is what you're referring to when you're talking about intuition. Similarly, that follow that urge, that instinct, that nudge that ping that ring, even if it feels pretty crazy. [00:19:21] Speaker B: Yeah. It's interesting when you say gathering data, because I actually see people gathering data. Especially when your intuition is telling you to do something that is opposite of what your logical mind thinks. I see people trying to gather data. At first it seems like a. Okay, I'm just exploring what other people think. And then it. And then it seems like people are. Are going one way or the other. They're trying to either gather data to convince themselves that it's okay to ignore their intuition. [00:19:52] Speaker A: Yes. Right. [00:19:53] Speaker B: To go with logic. Or they're. They're trying to trust their intuition, but they're really scared. So they're trying to gather data and have other people give them permission and tell them it's okay to follow their intuition. [00:20:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:06] Speaker B: And you know, my partner always jokes with me because, like, whenever he asks my opinion on anything, like, I never ever give him my opinion. I'm just like, well, what does your intuition say? And so sometimes I'll even like, he'll ask my opinion because it. Who gives a shit what I think? You know what I mean? Like, no. Ultimately, again, just everyone's intuition has. Intuition has so much more information than we could even gather. It's like picking up on the energy of things cues. It's picking up on our path of greatest expansion. It's picking up on what we really want to manifest rather than what we think we want to manifest. It's just picking up on so much more. And that's what's informing our intuitive decision, you know? [00:20:53] Speaker A: Do you think there's an argument that if I'm gathering data to support not making the change, that that is my clue that I'm not ready for the change. Like, is that inclination? Is that. I mean, I. I suppose, like, as I'm saying this, there's probably a difference between like just the habit of the response versus like a skillful engagement. But. But I do think, like, obviously readiness is an important part of this. And that's where I, like, again, you know, I look at you and I think about some of the things. I'm like, man, you know, the reason that they felt insane or they would feel insane to a lot of people is because they'd be like, I'd never be. I'd never gonna be ready to do that. Yeah. Anyway, I don't know. Does that make Sense. [00:21:34] Speaker B: It's. It's my belief that if intuition is guiding someone to do something, that they're ready. [00:21:40] Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah. [00:21:41] Speaker B: That they, they. Because again, like, intuition is our direct line to consciousness. And I don't believe that consciousness would fuck with us in that way. It's like. Or you could say, or love. Right. Or God, or however anyone wants to think of that. But it's like now I think sometimes it can be a both and it can be a. Oh, my intuition's guiding me to do something. And maybe intuition knows full well that you won't be able to do it right away. And it's a. It's a slow. Okay, well, that's fine. Like a loving. Like, okay, this person has an intuition to do something, is too afraid, doesn't follow that intuition. That's fine because intuition is going to keep guiding you to do it again and again and again. And you're going to have so many experiences where you're going to get burned by not following it that eventually the pain is going to outweigh the fear of change. And you will follow. [00:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah. It's actually like taking me back to what we're talking about a little bit ago. When you get quiet with yourself, the real danger in that is that you are going to get that first ping. Because when you get that first thing. [00:22:51] Speaker B: It'S like, I love that you say. It's so interesting that you say danger. [00:22:55] Speaker A: Well, I mean it. Because it's like. Because then you're gonna have to change, right? Like, or you don't. You don't have to, but you're gonna feel that perpetual urge, that itch, that discomfort. Because I do think of it as like, it's perceived danger, right. It's perceived threat goes into like, the nervous system and stuff. But. But that is. I just. There. And I could wax poetic on this for a long time, but that's a lot of times why I think people don't pursue things that make them feel good in general. Because they actually don't even want to know that. Because then that would potentially inspire having to extricate themselves from all the shitty situations in their lives. [00:23:31] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. I mean, and I've had people start working with me and then stop because they don't. They. They recognize, like, okay, I'm actually not living authentically at all, but I don't want to change anything. Like, if, if I were to be authentic people in my life, they think wouldn't like them. [00:23:49] Speaker A: Yeah. I have a story along those lines really briefly that I. So in my Voice coaching work. I worked with someone who was a. A very successful, what we call studio musician, studio singer. And they don't exist anymore. But it used to be back in the day that there were these people that would just like, you would hire and like do the background vocals or whatever, and they would come in and they'd be able to knock it out really fast. And so this person did that for a number of really big bands like the Beach Boys. And anyway, long story short, they had a bunch of health problems. They ended up having to have thyroid surgery, thyroid removed. And that, that is very significant when it comes to the voice because the thyroid takes up a significant amount of space around the larynx and it's really, really big shift. And that person had never taken voice lessons or any sort of voice coaching. In fact, a very famous musician who maybe was the lead singer of the Beach Boys told this person, don't ever go to a voice teacher. They'll fuck your voice up. So anyway, they have surgery really distorts their relationship to their instrument. The doctor said, hey, you should really go work with a voice teacher. Voice coach. They worked with me. It was, it was such a sort of like a harrowing experience for me because I felt really sympathetic to this person's experience. And I. And I felt really clear that I could help them. And they felt really excited in our first session, like thrilled at what was possible. Then they felt really good in the second session and then they bounced. And I think that it taps into what it is that we were talking about. I've always thought about this because it was going to a. There was a certain level of work that was evident really quickly that was going to need to be done. And that felt totally overwhelming, Especially in light of the fact that they had spent all this time being financially successful and career wise successful. But now the circumstances had shifted and that change felt so scary and overwhelming that I think they just weren't willing to do it and bounced on the whole thing. And I always like, hold this person in my heart because I felt really sympathetic to that overwhelm and also personally disappointed that we weren't able to, you know, turn the dial in a way that I knew that we could. But I think that often happens where people, people, they touch the fire and then they're like, oh, it is actually hot. Yeah. You know, and. And then, then it's like, how are you willing to move forward in light of that? [00:26:09] Speaker B: Right? And I think that is where people like you and I come in. I mean, you having a Process. Like, it's not like. I mean, you were going to take him through a process. Right. That's where in my work, coming up with processes and like, that's. And all my courses are just essentially a series of different processes to help people achieve the transformation or find what they're looking for and all of that. And I think that without. When I think back to trying to make the big decisions that I used to make, without that structure in place, it was harder because if you try to take a really big leap and then you don't have something to support the leap. [00:26:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:52] Speaker B: It can feel so chaotic that you can feel. It feels like you lose yourself in it sometimes. That's the point. Sometimes you're supposed to lose yourself so that you can find your new self on the other side. But I think having anchors of certain practices, I guess you could say, have been really beneficial for me in. In making those big decisions. I think. I think it's like, I know that any big decision requires a transformation. And because I've become an expert at transform, like just process of transformation, I'm. I'm always just thinking, okay, what do I need to facilitate this transformation? Facilitate it as fast as possible. A lot of times, honestly, that's to move away from suffering. It's. It's like to move out of whatever I'm experiencing that feels unpleasant. [00:27:36] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:27:38] Speaker B: And that's kind of the crazy thing though too, is like, people don't transform because they don't want to. Like, oh, they're like, oh, this is fire. Like, this feels like fire. Right. But they're already suffering. Like him, for instance. Like now he's like, now he just doesn't have a relationship with his voice anymore. [00:27:55] Speaker A: I know. Yeah, it's super sad. It's really sad because it felt like a missed opportunity. And it also. I feel like there's this. It's an ego death thing where, like, even though it was like confronting the reality of what it was going to take to step into this new self was like, so overwhelming because it meant giving. One had to give up the old self, even though the old self had already been given up in that surgery that happened, you know, it's like, no, this is. This is who you are now. This is your reality now. But. But people are. And we are. I could say that, you know, humans are often married to their discomfort. Like, it feels very identity driven. It can feel very egoic to be like, I am someone that suffers. I was out to dinner recently with a friend, and I just was really Struggling in the conversation because the friend was conveying to me circumstances that were legitimately challenging, and I wanted to be, you know, a good ally to them in the midst of this situation. And then also there was a point in the conversation where I recognized that the point of the conversation was not to do anything other than to keep reiterating how hard it was. And. And, you know, that can be really challenging if you're not someone. Like, that's not generally how I'm trying to move through the world. And. And so figuring out how to be supportive for someone that isn't really interested in having a. They're. They're so connected to the struggle and the turmoil and the suffering. Their identity feels connected to it. It's like, yeah, I don't have anything to offer in light of that. That feels really hard. [00:29:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a difference between holding space for someone that is. I mean, well, somebody might be looking for a solution in a conversation like that, or they might just be looking to actually process. [00:29:42] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. [00:29:43] Speaker B: Right. And so it's like, it's easy to hold space, or I find it pretty easy to hold space for someone when I feel like what they're doing is really actually trying to move through it and process. [00:29:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:53] Speaker B: But I think what most or so many people do is they're not doing that. They're just ruminating, and every time they speak it out loud, reinforcing their own story and their own identity in that suffering. [00:30:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:09] Speaker B: And for me, personally, I don't. I don't have relationships with people like that anymore. [00:30:15] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's what I think. That was my real struggle in the moment as I was like, I don't know how to connect with you right now in a way that feels supportive for both of us because it's like the. I think. What? What? Because. Because I want to be really clear that I. I like what you're saying. I do have the capacity to sit with someone in their suffering who needs to process, who needs to be held, who just needs to be listened to. Like, I. That's one of the biggest gifts that we can possibly give another human being is just to sit and listen to them. But there is this complicated part about being human that. That can tip. That can tip quickly into rumination. Like, that can tip quickly into. Just like. The way I think about it is like sanding a groove in a piece of wood. It's like, just keeps getting sanded deeper and deeper rather than to flatten out the board. And. And once you recognize that possibility within your own life or those habits and patterns and start to change that, it feels really difficult to watch others continue to get deeper and deeper into that. That groove. And so, yeah, there does have to be different boundaries in those kinds of relationships or. Or they might not be able to continue on. I have a question about regret, because I think that this is something I. I think it's kind of commonplace to hear people say, well, I don't have any regrets. It's sort of a common phrase. But as someone who has had some, like, you know, whatever, radical shifts and maybe taken them in times that you couldn't make sense of them. Is regret something that you've experienced? [00:31:50] Speaker B: Well, first of all, that's interesting. Do you hear a lot of people say they don't have regrets? Is that a common thing you hear? [00:31:54] Speaker A: I feel like it's like a thing that people say because they think they're supposed to say, okay, right. It's like. Like, no, I don't. Life works out. I don't regret anything, you know, all my decisions. But I'm thinking about the actual experience of making these big shifts because I can say I have a regret. [00:32:12] Speaker B: Oh, is it really? [00:32:13] Speaker A: Yes, a very specific one. [00:32:16] Speaker B: You want to share it? [00:32:17] Speaker A: Well, I don't want to. [00:32:19] Speaker B: Okay. [00:32:20] Speaker A: I didn't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to. I wanted to. I don't want to direct your response, but. [00:32:25] Speaker B: You don't want to prime me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I guess this. This is going to sound a little esoteric, but I guess the way that I've come to look at myself is like consciousness experiencing the world through Stephanie. [00:32:41] Speaker A: Okay. [00:32:43] Speaker B: And just like consciousness is. Is trying to experience the world through Davin and. And every living being. And there's so many things that influence us, especially on our journey of awakening before. Before we start to awaken. I mean, we're all acting automatically. So I feel like whenever we make any decision, we're making at the level of consciousness that. The level of awareness that we're at in that moment. [00:33:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:13] Speaker B: So it's. I think it's easy sometimes when we continue to evolve, then we look back and we think, oh, I should have decided differently. But at that point, we were just at the level of awareness that we were at. And I think. Here's the thing. I used to live with a tremendous amount of regret, actually. And there was a point in time of like, five or six years ago where I forgot that I used to live like that. I was actually coaching a group of people. And they were talking about like how they were having difficulty having self love and have. And there was just like a lot of self hatred going on in the group. And I was thinking about how I didn't struggle with that. I was like, oh, I don't really relate to that. I don't. But then I was listening to a teacher talk about a course in miracles and about forgiveness. The. The. The course's definition of forgiveness is just a shift in perspective. [00:34:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:34:04] Speaker B: And there was something in there when she was talking that I suddenly had this remembering. And I say the reason I preface it by saying I forgot is that's how much we can heal. But I had this sudden remembering that I used to fucking hate myself and I used to just blame myself for everything. Like. Like anytime anyone in my family suffered growing up, I thought it was my fault. Anytime anyone around me was suffering, I thought it was my fault. [00:34:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:30] Speaker B: And so I used to have regret about like everything. [00:34:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:34] Speaker B: I mean just. But then I think the more that I started to actually awaken and move out of and I first of all just learning about automatic responses, learning that oh, the reason I make these decisions and have these behaviors is because it's literally what I was taught to have. [00:34:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. [00:34:50] Speaker B: I'm just avoiding suffering and I don't know another way. And then when I started realizing that I had power to change those beliefs and change those behaviors, Everything shifted in terms of I suddenly felt like I had more power. [00:35:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:07] Speaker B: And then at the same time I was growing my connection with my intuition and I started following that more. And so like any. I would say any decision I've ever made following my intuition, I've never regretted. [00:35:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:19] Speaker B: But also I'm at a point now where any decision that I've, let's say, accidentally made that wasn't in alignment with my intuition, like for now, honestly, that may be like. I guess you could say small things like if I eat a meal that I didn't really check with my intuition if I should eat it right now. Like, or. Or it was feeling like I kind of knew I shouldn't eat that meal. Like I can have like a tinge of like, oh, okay. But I. Instead of like, there's no, there's no like self. Usually when I think of regret, I think of like the self hatred I used to have with regret. [00:35:49] Speaker A: Ye. [00:35:50] Speaker B: And it would weigh heavily on me. [00:35:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:53] Speaker B: Whereas now I look at it as. And. And it's always a lesson. It's always just like a. Okay. Like. [00:35:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:00] Speaker B: That has Informed me now for the future. [00:36:02] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like there's a neutrality to, to that or equanimity. Yeah, I think about like, because I also can say that I don't struggle with self hatred. But as you were saying that I also caught glimpses recently of when I've blamed myself for things. And there is sort of a subtle aggression or, or harmfulness in that attitude toward oneself that's like, oh, okay, Devin. Like, I think I'm generally pretty good and easy on myself. I'm like, oh, maybe there's, you know, there's some growth there, but. Okay. So my specific regret is that I regret going getting a master's degree. And the reason I did it, I worked for a university administratively and everyone kept telling me, you know, there's money on the table. And the problem is there wasn't like a. Because it was like a tuition reimbursement sort of thing. And the problem with it was, is that there wasn't even like a program that I wanted to do. So I did this. Like, I have a master's of arts and interdisciplinary studies, which I jokingly called my choose your own adventure degree. And I didn't need to do it, shouldn't have done it. [00:37:11] Speaker B: But why do you still regret that? [00:37:13] Speaker A: Well, and this is what I'm, this is what I'm saying. Is that what you were just saying? What I recognize is I regret the fact that I didn't follow what I knew in the moment because the reason it stands out to me is it was a big ass commitment. [00:37:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:29] Speaker A: Like, it was a lot of time, a lot of energy. And the whole time, there was never once during that that I was like, yeah, this feels great. Like, I love this. I keep doing this. But it was also at a season of my life where that was reflected in a lot of different areas of my life where I was just really struggling to honor myself, honor my truth, honor my intuition, honor my deeper knowing. And. But for whatever reason, that piece of paper, like that feels like a monumental symbol of where I was struggling to grow during that time. Now, I don't hold this against myself when I use the word regret. You know, maybe it has like a different meaning for different folks because what I heard you saying earlier with regards to like your group coaching is a lot of like shame and guilt. [00:38:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:14] Speaker A: You know, I don't necessarily feel that around those things, but I do see that clearly as like having made a big choice, really stuck it out, like, did it, I did the thing, you know, and like, like the whole Thing about it was not ever aligned, you know, with who I was or striving to be. So it's just like an interesting sort of thought experiment. [00:38:36] Speaker B: I mean, I have many things I've done that weren't aligned. [00:38:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Some meals I was like. When you were saying that, I was like, I think I feel that way after I eat. [00:38:51] Speaker B: Every time I. You know, I. My. My goal is to not. Is literally not to do anything in a day that is not guided by my intuition. And, like, my. My intuitive guidance now is such that I'm not necessarily having to pause and ask. Like, I'm just flowing, right. Like. Like, I just know, okay, now I'm gonna go do this. Now I'm gonna go do this. Sometimes it is a little bit more. If I've been, like, on my phone a lot, or if I've been. If I just had, like, kind of an icky conversation with someone or, like, things like that will disconnect me from it. And then I may have to pause and ask, like, hold on. Is this aligned for me to do this? But that. That's, you know, the last few years. Right. Like, before that, I mean, there were just loads of relationships and all different kinds of relationships, romantic and otherwise, a lot of friendships, family relationships, hanging out with people, when it wasn't actually aligned for me to be hanging out with people. I mean, so many things that made me feel terrible inside. [00:39:56] Speaker A: Yep. [00:39:56] Speaker B: Right. And I think the release of those has been through a lot of the inner work that I've done. And now, weirdly, a lot of it doesn't feel like it was me. Like, it. Like, I feel. It feels so neutral, I guess, that it just doesn't feel like it was me. And at the same time, that burn that you're talking about, about, like, thinking back to, wow, that was a long time, that was such a huge commitment, and that was, like, not aligned the whole time. I think when we can realize that we've done things and really internalize that feeling, I think there's utility to that because we can. If we can integrate that, it can then direct us towards not doing that again. [00:40:38] Speaker A: Yeah. I think what I'm ultimately, in some ways trying to get at is sometimes I think regret is useful in that there is. And again, like, we could talk semantics here. [00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:40:50] Speaker A: So hopefully, you know, you can hear what I'm saying in terms of what it is that I'm trying to communicate. But there is, like, a looking back and, like, owning of the circumstance and seeing the ways in which it wasn't aligned. Which is the useful lesson because. Because a lot of those lessons, they only come with time, right? Like when you get enough space beyond the thing that you can see it clearly. And that's when you recognize, like, oh, that wasn't actually me being me. And that's where I think I'm also connecting with you. Being like that feels like someone else. I mean, literally, if I think about myself sitting in those classrooms, for sure. What do you do? Like, who. Who was doing. [00:41:25] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I 100 agree. And I think people don't do it enough. Or if they do, they're keeping it low key. It's like they know that a decision wasn't aligned and that they shouldn't have done something. But like, it's also so uncomfortable for them to think about it that they just put it off and they just like, ignore that. But the problem with that, which is what you're alluding to, is like, then you end up just repeating it. [00:41:50] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [00:41:50] Speaker B: In. In different forms. Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's an interesting perspective of regret then. [00:41:56] Speaker A: Like, but I think like, this is like a big. The reason I'm bringing it up in this conversation is I think it is maybe an important component of being able to make significant shifts and changes in your life that feel radical and real is you also have to be able to look back at the times that you didn't or, you know, you have to be able to reflect. I shouldn't use that language. It's useful to be able to reflect back and, you know, see things clearly and, and, and with some level of neutrality around it. With not like, with not a, A whip with yourself self flagellation around, like, you know, you idiot, why would you do that stupid thing? It's like, oh, no, that wasn't aligned. Like, that wasn't right. That wasn't who you are, who you wanted to be. And that then can really inspire the change in the momentum forward or engaging some of the practices like you do to continue to foster growth in your ability and your capacity to do that more in your life. [00:42:53] Speaker B: Well, and that ties back to the first question you asked me, which was like, what was the tipping point for you to start trusting yourself more? And it was the burn of regret. [00:43:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:43:04] Speaker B: Like, it was. I'm so tired of. And to me, I think, although I wouldn't have use these words at the time, it was, I'm so tired of self abandoning. Yeah, like, this is not working. [00:43:18] Speaker A: Can you say more about like, I think like that term self abandonment can you say, just say more about that. What is that? [00:43:26] Speaker B: It's when you have a. Either a sense of something that you should or shouldn't do, or there's a feeling coming up in your body and you ignore it. [00:43:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:38] Speaker B: And you don't follow. You don't honor what your body is telling you. You don't honor your. The sort of whisper. And I mean, I think this is a tricky thing for a lot of people because, like, when I first start working with people in my intuition course, a lot of them will say, like, well, I have these like whispers, but I don't. To me, sometimes they sound crazy. Are they sounding insane? Or they don't make sense. Like, that's a big one. Like they don't make sense, so they think it's just coming out of nowhere. It's just like a stupid thought or a weird idea. [00:44:11] Speaker A: Easy to discount. [00:44:13] Speaker B: Yeah. But the part of them that's discounting that or discounting, like, you know what, it doesn't feel good when I hang out with this person. Like, I leave this conversation feeling icky or I don't. I don't like that this person is just always talking shit on other people. Or like, it just feels. But then you, you somehow default to, well, they've been my friend for 10 years though. [00:44:37] Speaker A: Right. Right. [00:44:38] Speaker B: And like, so I like, obviously are like, well, they're my sister, so like, obviously I have to maintain a relationship. Or like, well, they've been working in my office for 20 years, so obviously, like. And there's these just defaults that we go to when that is actually self abandoning. Because there's a deeper part of self that is saying, hey, like this, this isn't. This actually isn't right. This doesn't feel good. There's something off here. And you're ignoring that because there's all these defaults in place. [00:45:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And you're making me think that, like the act that, like the radical act of love, that the way that any of us would want to be loved is to have someone accept all the parts of us. Like all of the, like the honor. Even if it is crazy, but at least honor that it's me. Right? Like, yes. You know, like someone that can sit with you. That's. I saying earlier, it's like when you are struggling, someone that can just sit and listen and like affirm that you're good, you know, like, that is so, so powerful. But we really struggle so often to do that to ourselves. You know, I love when I work with someone who has kids because I Always think that that's like, one of the best reminders of, like, if a little kid came up to you and they'd be like, there's a ghost. You know, it's easy. It happens to all of us. Where someone's like, there's no ghost, like, gone. But like, a really loving parent be like, where do you think you see that? You know, like, what do you think that actually is? Or whatever. Like, tell me more. [00:46:05] Speaker B: It could literally be a ghost, right? [00:46:07] Speaker A: Like, yes, but, like, tell me, like, help me get to know what it is. And that's like, the most loving thing that you could offer. I'm reading Martha Beck's new book. [00:46:16] Speaker B: Yes, I just bought it. [00:46:18] Speaker A: The Grand Anxiety. It's great. It's great. But she talks about it's not her idea, and apologies that I don't remember the person that she's referencing, but she talks about, like, this idea that a tool for parenting is to imagine a field of benches and that each bench is for a different emotion. Could be anger, could be frustration, it could be anxiety, fear, whatever. And then you imagine that whatever emotion that your kid is in the midst of that, you're just going to go sit with them on that bench. And I was just thinking to myself, like, would I just go sit with myself on that bench? You know, like, the beauty of being able to just, like, let myself be exactly where I am. Because then, you know, there's a sort of a. An ability to get up and walk and move forward, but you got to sit on that bench first. And I think, like, that's so much of what you're talking about when you're talking about the self abandonment, the unwillingness to. To sit with yourself on the bench in honor. Because the other bench could be joy, the other bench could be playfulness. The other bench could be curiosity. It's not exclusively negative, but there is a capacity that we have to cultivate to be able to sit on any of the benches. [00:47:27] Speaker B: Yes. In the last, like, I would say 18 months, I've had a tremendous amount of, like, inner joy and self love that has blossomed because I've been relentless to do that to like, every part of me that rises up, I show so much devotion to and sit with in just that way. Like, literally, like using the internal family systems framework, which Martha Beck references a lot in Beyond Anxiety, but, like, using that framework, because that's the main framework that I use. Like, I will call that part forward of me, like, visually in my mind, and ask that part what it needs and sit with that part and really be with that part. And the thing in those moments where that, like, a part is rising up in us or our truth is rising up in us, and then we immediately negate it, ignore it, shut it down, say it's ridiculous. That voice is a voice that we heard at some point. [00:48:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. [00:48:24] Speaker B: Like it was someone else in our real life when we were a child. It was like either a caretaker, a coach. [00:48:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:31] Speaker B: A mentor, a friend, a sibling, somebody that repeatedly told us, like, that's ridiculous. Or. And so we then we like, okay, I guess that's ridiculous. And we internalize that and then that becomes our voice. [00:48:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:48:45] Speaker B: And we start, you know, getting pissed at ourselves. And, you know, like, I. I hear my clients do this all the time. Be like. And I was telling myself, like, you just need to shut up. And like, what's wrong with you? And it's like, that is not. Let's not talk to ourselves that way. But it's not like, I think sometimes when we hear, like, self love out in the world, like, oh, you know, show yourself some love. To me, that seems so. Just. That's so surface. And it's not like taking a bubble bath is not going to solve your problems. [00:49:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:15] Speaker B: You know, but it's really sitting. It's really sitting in those moments with. Wait, hold on. Like, pausing and being like, wait, what was that thought? Like, like, exactly like you're saying, with like the benches. It's like, what was that thought? What is this feeling if I feel uncomfortable with this person? Why? Yeah, like honoring that. And I think that I didn't. Even though I was following my intuition. I've always kind of followed my intuition to a degree from a young age. But like, yeah, there was a moment in my 20s where I was suffering so much, and then I realized I'm not even listening to myself. [00:49:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:49:50] Speaker B: Like, I've been miserable for so long, and I convinced myself to stay in this marriage, and I convinced myself, like, it's like all this stuff. [00:49:58] Speaker A: Yeah. I also think too, those voices that we hear that aren't ours, that are basically always critical. [00:50:06] Speaker B: Yes. [00:50:08] Speaker A: A lot of times, you know, those aren't even specific situations where something has happened. It's sort of been the implied message of the situation which happens, which is like, can become like the cultural narrative. So, you know, for instance, my story of being like a queer kid in a small town with a father for a minister. You know, a lot of times no one said anything explicitly to me, but it was just the. The implied cultural narrative. You Know, and in some ways that's more insidious and it's actually like even worse because you, your story can be really outlandish in your mind because no one's even giving you the actual parameters of it. Like you, you can end up as a small child sort of assuming worst case scenario and then that becomes how it a governing force and how you're making choices and decisions. I mean, you know, my mom, I said that story earlier about my mom with work. Like, my mom grew up incredibly poor. I mean, like, you know, like legitimately one room schoolhouse situation, one pair of shoes a year. You know, all of the siblings took bath in the same bath water. That kind of a situation. So in the context of her life, like, I totally understand her POV and why she would say the things, but it wasn't in any way close to my actual lived reality. [00:51:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:19] Speaker A: That I was in. And so starting to have the discernment. It, it really does start with actually having honest conversations with yourself and being able to sit and listen to yourself, because otherwise you will default to the strongest narratives that you've been given. And so often they're not based in your reality. They're based projections. They're projections of other people's experiences. [00:51:42] Speaker B: So over the last few years, from especially the very beginning of me working with you, I've seen you take a lot bigger, bolder, like risk and choices. Because I actually remember a conversation you and I had initially when we were first starting and you were. I was kind of. I always laugh now because, like, I'm just picturing your face sometimes when I would tell you like, all the things I'm doing and like, you know, to change myself. And you would just be like, wow, what the. That's a lot of stuff. And I remember at one point saying like, yeah, I'm just always, I'm like always pushing myself out of my comfort zone. And then I was like, aren't you? And you were like, no, that's true. And I was, I was like, oh. And that was, that was good for me to hear because I think I have had this default of thinking everyone's doing the same thing that I'm doing and everyone's just like me. Right. But with that said, I actually have seen you do that a lot in the last couple of years. So what instigated that shift for you to start pushing yourself more and more out of your comfort zone and take. Because I mean, somebody could say like, oh, why rock the boat? You had this coaching business and like, why do all this other stuff now that you're doing, like being on stages. [00:52:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I feel like I want to say a couple of things before I answer that. And one is that I'm going to give you like an example from a voice lesson that hopefully will communicate what I was trying to communicate to you, or observing or witnessing or trying to learn more about you. And so when one sings well, they need to be flexible and free in their body. So often when I have someone singing, I might ask them to move their body while they sing. Some people though, when they're standing there singing, they're like doing this kind of like nervous, twitchy movement, in which case I need to ask them to stand still. And there's this sort of irony because they might be, well, you asked me to move my head and now you're telling me not to move my arms because the nature of the movement is different. And it's difficult to explain how it's different. But nervous twitching, moving isn't like flexible. So the reason I'm giving you this example is sometimes when I meet folks like you who are doing the most, it is a way of distracting themselves from just being okay with themselves, like hanging out, sitting, getting to know themselves. And I think that probably some of the early interactions we had was me trying to understand better what was driving that. And in some ways it's guiding my line of questioning today. Like, what is it within you that that pushes in that because you push hard. But I can also testify to the fact that I don't see this as a nervous movement for you, which is why I admire your sort of self discipline and commitment to it. So that's one thing I've witnessed. I call some folks like perpetual learners. And I don't use that, as I kind of say it pejoratively. Like, it's like the folks that are like, always taking a class, always doing something, there's an aspect to that where I'm like, can you just like, relax for a sec? Because you might have everything that you need right here, right now if you could relax long enough into it. And so I have recognized that there was a season, there have been seasons in my life where I have done that, sort of running around, looking to other people for answers, always engaging the next workshop, next class, next thing. And. And I. I'm aware of that instinct within me and how I've seen it and others. But to answer your actual question at this season in my life, the thing that's unsatisfying for someone to hear me say is it's just the next thing that I had to do, you know. And you'd love to be. I would love to be able to say, well, this happened, and then this, and then it was, bam. I had to do this. And there are aspects, there are micro moments, there are glimmers to use more Martha Beck language of that. But ultimately, I can't be uncomfortable for very long. And I don't mean uncomfortable. I mean uncomfortable in the mundane or the sort of rote way that my life can take shape. I have now gathered enough energy and momentum around these sort of changes and shifts that I know that when I feel confined, that there's some sort of creative expression that needs to emerge. And I want. I would even argue that I can't not let it emerge at this point. And you and I got more deeply connected at a season in my life where that was really. I was becoming more cognizant of that reality. I think I've always operated like that on a certain aspect. But now I'm like, yolo, yeah, like, let's go. Like, come on. I got this thing. I got this idea. Like, let's go. I also know from previous experiences that I have the capacity to take an idea and if it's the right idea and it feels aligned with me, like, I can really do the thing. Like, I've seen it in the past in my life now. In the past, I've done that for things that weren't necessarily aligned, and I've burned out. And that's where I have a real awareness around some trepidation around, like, I'm not doing that again. But I also know that if that thing pops up within me and it's like, I think this is a good idea. If I actually sit with it long enough and it sticks, I know I have everything in the tank to, like, go get the thing. And that's where I trust myself differently in the past. And that's where I recognize that that type of discomfort is the goal. It's the. It's the growth, it's the change, it's the transformation, it's the healing. And it's. It is so different than the type of discomfort of, like, being confined, you know, like, trying to. To be still for the purpose of, like, keeping myself away from my truth. So. So it's a culmination of all the work I had done prior and continue to do. And it also is a symptom of being pretty good with myself, like, pretty okay. And not. Not hard on myself in a way. I saw My moments, for sure. Yeah. So that was a lot. But it gives you a little bit of context around that. [00:58:01] Speaker B: Yeah. So initially there was some poking in terms of like, what, what is this girl doing? When we first started chatting of like, is this relentless drive for transformation and avoidance, which would actually be really ironic. [00:58:18] Speaker A: It happens, though. I mean, I think it happens now more than ever because there are these like, especially I think about like the use of psychedelics and things like that. [00:58:25] Speaker B: Oh, for sure. [00:58:26] Speaker A: It's become so mainstream that I don't know if mainstream, but it's become very popular in the culture. And so you see people engaging these experiences that do carry the potential to really shift their psyche, to really shift how it is that they move in the world. But they haven't put enough pieces in place prior to that to understand that it also can just be a trip, you know, like, it could also just be a distraction from having to confront the realities of everyday life. And so if you're not understanding those things in tandem, you're potentially gonna, I don't know, just like tread water in a way by. While you're doing these insane things, you know? [00:59:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:09] Speaker A: It's not to say that it doesn't turn the dial some. I know that it will. And we all have our process, but I have over the year. I mean, I've been coaching for over 20 years and I've seen specifically these folks that. And I say this, you know, my intention is to say this without judgment, but these folks that are what I call just perpetual learners and it feels like an avoidance tactic. Now I didn't, I didn't take that from you, but I am always curious when, and I'm saying this with some love, but when I meet someone that does the most where I'm like, oh. [00:59:40] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, of course my intention is never to do the most. Right. [00:59:44] Speaker A: Like, I know, but also I do the most, you know, like, relate to that. [00:59:50] Speaker B: Yeah. But the learning thing is actually really interesting because that actually was, I think, who I was before I started doing the real work because I didn't know what the real work was. And, and I think a lot of people, I mean, I don't think I know a lot of people have no idea what real work is in terms of like emotional psychological work. And they think if they read a self help book and sometimes even honestly just go to talk therapy, that that that's it. Like, that's the work. [01:00:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:21] Speaker B: And that's what I did. Literally. I mean, I. Because of a traumatic accident and you know, When I was 14, I was in therapy off and on like my whole life. So it's not like I wasn't doing therapy. I was in therapy and I was like learning, like a voracious learner, like reading literally everything. And it, and it has served me, like it's informed so much of what I. And it actually, it was surface. [01:00:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:46] Speaker B: Like, listening to podcasts and reading books is always surface level. You're never having an embodied experience. In fact, I just was talking to someone who took my intuition course and he was telling me I had read all these books on like the quantum field and that we are consciousness and all of this stuff. And he's like. And I knew that on an intellectual level, like, I'd read so many books and all these courses and everything, but when I took your course, I, I, it's, it's like all of a sudden I like, like felt it and I was like, oh, oh my God. [01:01:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Body then. [01:01:17] Speaker B: Yeah. When I finally got into actual work, like I found a therapist that did deep work and worked with the subconscious and then created my own means of working with the subconscious. I mean, it's just like, especially in la, there would be times, like for six months when I first got there, I had a practice of sitting there and working with my breath and sound and movement. And the whole goal was I had to do it until I cried. And I would do it every day for an hour. I would try, I would. Because just so I could feel my emotions. Because I was like, you know what? I don't want to stay surface. I want to make sure I'm moving my emotions out. I want to make sure that. Because for me, like, it was never comfortable from feeling my emotions growing up. So that was a, that was a real practice and that was work. Like, that was like, that was so hard to sit there and like, I was so anxious every day I sat down and I was like, okay, I have to just fucking sit here, move my breath and make sound until I cry. So I think it's all of that work coupled with the, you know, the momentum of taking big risks that, that gives you that sense of, like, you seem bold. Where is that coming from? And it's like it's not staying surface level. [01:02:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:02:33] Speaker B: And it's so hard. And also I recognize that it's been, it's been almost like a full time job. My own personal awakening. [01:02:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I think is so cool. Like, I think that there's a. Again, like, like if you think about what we're committing Our time to. In our lives. Like, you know, to. To really actually make that commitment to living your best life. I mean, that sounds so. So Oprah, to say that. But it's a really. It's a. What better full time job could you have? I mean, if you have the luxury. That's not the word. If you have the ability to be able to do that. Like if you create. If you manifest a life that allows for space with that, like, yes, go. And I think that there isn't also. The two words that come to mind are. This one might sound negative. I don't mean it addiction. Like it becomes addictive to. Because it feels good. And I maybe if there's ever been a good sense of the word addiction, like to be addicted to. To growth and personal healing and transformation. Like that is the, the drug I want to take. But then also the word that's been really, really resonating with me the last two years is momentum. That once that momentum gets rolling, you really can't stop that. Like it. In. In the best sense. Like it gathers speed and it. And it. And it carries you. [01:03:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:49] Speaker A: And there are certain things that will sort of like maybe inhibit along the way. But that's what I mean when I say it was the next. Next thing that I had to do because the momentum was already going. And it's like, you know. But, you know, I also have had reflected to me during the season of my life. Like a friend just said it. So I just performed, I was telling you earlier, I just performed in Omaha the other day. And I lead these immersive sound healing experiences. And at the beginning I talk to people like I talk for like five to 10 minutes and I tell them about me and I tell them about why we would be doing what we're doing. And my friend said to me afterward, who was there, she was like, you know, it was so great. She's like, it was just like Davin was up there talking and it was such a simple thing to say to me. Like it did, you know. But it really resonated with me because that's. I think what she was expressing was just like that seeing of my true self and. And that is reflective of how I'm finally feeling. So I'm quote, unquote, performing. But it doesn't feel like that at all in the moment. Now it is performative. Like I'm standing on a stage and I'm talking with a microphone in my hand and I'm using a voice that I might not use it necessarily in you know, conversation. But it feels so right in terms of my ability to express my honest truth through that space. And so. So that is the addictive quality. I'm like, I want more of that. Like, I want. I want. And this is you going, like, I want my whole day to be intuitive. Like, I want to really feel honest and authentic throughout the whole day. And it's a noble, noble endeavor. And I'm glad that we're on that path. [01:05:24] Speaker B: I love that. And I. It's interesting because, like, when I look at any really creative person, like, people that really are doing, like, they have their hands on a lot of things, it only seems to expand more and more. [01:05:35] Speaker A: Yes. [01:05:36] Speaker B: Like, their creativity. And I think that's, you know, going back to saying, like, consciousness is just experiencing life through Stephanie and through Toby. And it's like, when we do, I guess, personal work or, like, the work, we start to experience more of love and consciousness and life force moving through us. And that feels so good. So to me, it's like it was never. I mean, here's the thing. Like, I grew up super Christian, and I felt like I had to do certain things to be good. [01:06:03] Speaker A: Yep. [01:06:04] Speaker B: Right. Like, to be a good person and to be righteous and to. To be just like Jesus and all the things. And I remember, like, it was always reflected to me that I should be just like Jesus and like, Mother Teresa and I would, like, try so hard to be like them. And. And that always felt honestly bad in my body. [01:06:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:25] Speaker B: Like, it felt like effort, and I had to. I mean, for some reason, for me, being the oldest, it was really important that I do a lot of volunteer work as a child. So when I was, like, 10, 11, 12, 13, when a lot of kids were playing, I was doing volunteer work and, like, helping out at shelters or, you know, taking care of even younger kids at daycare and just doing, like. Like volunteer work. And. And it was never fun to me. It never felt good. Like. And so I think there's. There's such a distinction. It's almost like when I left the construct of Christianity and I started exploring. I mean, for a while I was atheist. Then I started exploring just metaphysical concepts and. And whatever. There was really a time in my life where I felt like I was free to just be whoever the I wanted to be. And during that time, I did a lot of stuff. I dated a lot of people. I drank a lot of booze. I was, like, completely crazy because I needed to, like, feel what it felt like to just not always have to be good, you know? And do the right thing. When I started this path of personal transformation, like, I mean, really, it started with deep psychological work. That's really where a lot of my true liberation started and then became like more metaphysical. But my motivation now, other than just not self abandoning and a deep love and devotion for myself and to follow my inner guidance, is because I feel good. [01:07:46] Speaker A: Right? [01:07:46] Speaker B: And it's, it's not just a, like, oh, I feel good. That was a great day. It's like, what the. I had no idea that I could feel this amazing in my body that I could take a breath and it almost be orgasmic. Like, I had no idea I could feel this way. [01:08:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And I just want to, like, as you were talking a moment ago and you're talking about volunteering and that not feeling good, I and could imagine someone being, well, it's not supposed to feel good, right? Like, it's an act. It's not about you. It's like an act of service. But what I want to say on the other side of that is that when those things are aligned with your truth. [01:08:23] Speaker B: Yes. [01:08:23] Speaker A: They feel amazing. [01:08:25] Speaker B: So good. [01:08:25] Speaker A: And that's, you know, that's another, like, fact of my life that I continue to be surprised by. I mean, I was telling you earlier I have to give a speech next week. And the actual writing of the speech has eluded me until very recently and now it's only a few days and I have to have this thing memorized. And I'm like tortured in some ways by the fact that, oh my God, I don't know how I'm gonna get this done. But also it feels so good, you know, like, there's that. Because it's that creative energy that feels like I have something really exciting to say here. And I'm very overwhelmed by the, by the work that it is going to take, but I'm very willing to do it because it feels like the next right thing to do. And it feels good. And so there's this, there's this interesting space in place where things are difficult, they feel hard. You would be like, that is, you know, objectively so hard. But it also feels so good at the same time because it feels aligned with your truth and it feels honest. And that can even be decisions, like ending a relationship, right? Where you're like, there is this possibility that, yeah, there will be grief and sadness and tears, but at the same time it feels like, amazing. I actually have a client right now who is going through a divorce much later in life than people typically. I mean, I don't know if there is a typical age, but it's surprising to me that after having been. It's a second marriage for them. They've been married for a long time. They're getting a divorce. But I'm witnessing this happening in her and the communication that she has to me around, it's been very painful. And also, they both are communicating the whole time because they have this, like, sophistication in their ability to communicate with one another that it feels right, it feels good, you know, and they're really, like, letting each other go through that process. It makes me laugh. It's like the Gwyneth Paltrow, you know, conscious uncoupling. Chris Martin, Gwyneth Paltrow. But it. I'm watching it from the outside, but it's so important. It's cool. Like, it's cool to watch where you're like, oh, you're going through something so hard, and you're not by. It's not a spiritual bypass. You're not being like, oh, it's fine. It's like you're crying and you're going, yes. And I think that that is what I'm learning to embrace more of in my life. Because anything you do that's really new is going to be so hard. Like, anything you do that is actual change is going to be really difficult because that's the only thing that makes it new, you know, the only thing that makes it a big step is that it's something you haven't done before. It's going to be hard. But that hardness feels both scary and exciting and exhilarating and worthwhile and. [01:10:53] Speaker B: Right. [01:10:54] Speaker A: Yes. Right. Very right. [01:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah. I like that you brought that in because I do tend to. I tend to be so focused on the feeling good, and sometimes just being in deep alignment and feeling my own inner support feels so good that I'm not verbally telling other people when I'm talking about it. Like. And it was also really hard. [01:11:11] Speaker A: Yes. [01:11:12] Speaker B: Like, I just forget to say that. [01:11:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:15] Speaker B: So I like that you brought that in, because it. It's true. Especially, like, I had someone contact me the other day saying that he's getting a divorce, and it was really shocking to him. And I told him, get ready. Divorces are literally some of the most magnetic energy that you can be in. Like, I see people's lives and the way they manifest go crazy right after they have a split. And same with me. I mean, I've been divorced twice. And, like, right after I got divorced, like, the way my life exploded in the most magnificent ways. [01:11:44] Speaker A: Yeah, well, there's a boldness. I mean, I equate it, like, too. I think about, like, my mom's death and like, yes, there's a boldness that comes with having lost something so big, you know, that you're like, well, if that didn't kill me, let's go. You know, like that. It feels like that in the moment. [01:12:01] Speaker B: Well, it's like. It shakes you loose. [01:12:03] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [01:12:04] Speaker B: Like, those pivotal moments are like, because you. We hold on to our construct of identity so tight, and something comes in and disrupts it, which, by the way, that's going to happen to everybody this year. Like, 2025. Energy is going to be so crazy. [01:12:16] Speaker A: It already. [01:12:17] Speaker B: And it already is exactly like January. Just wait. It's just gonna be like, every. Every month, it's gonna be like that. It's gonna be crazy. And it's like, supposed to be like, like, let it. Let it shake you loose. Because, like, when we. When we don't grip, when you do move into the loss and the grief and the whatever, like, that's where the transformation happens. And then that's also where you do start to listen to yourself more and you start to get clear about, like, what is it I really want? And then all of a sudden, like. Like, you don't give as much of a. It's like when someone so close to you dies, the things you used to give a about suddenly become so small. [01:12:54] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. If you haven't listened to the Anderson Cooper podcast about grief, it's so good. It's so. I highly recommend it to anyone. It's really, really good. But he did this interview with Amy and David Sedaris, and, you know, she talks about, like, how after her mom died, like, she basically, you know, saw everyone against this, like, narrative of, like, well, you don't know, because you haven't lost your mom. And the thing about that is, is that could take on, like, a negative sort of slant in terms of your ability to relate to people, but there was a boldness that came with that. And that's what I've experienced in my life, too, where it's like, like, you know, you'll find out, because we all do. But what I feel right now and what I'm aware of is that I'm able to connect with an ability to step into new things because I got through that and I experienced that and I feel disrupted. You know, that in a way that allows me to do that. And it doesn't feel good, but, yes, it feels great. You Know it's holding both of those things at once, which is a capacity that we expand into. [01:13:59] Speaker B: Let's both share what you would say to someone right now that is on the edge of a bold decision and that is feeling that tension, that resistance to, to go big and bold. What would you say to them? [01:14:16] Speaker A: I mean my, what I've witnessed in watching other people in this position is that you won't do the thing until you're ready to do it. You're not going to do it until you're ready to do it. But as an outsider, I can say with some confidence that you are likely ready sooner than you believe you're ready. And so there's this capacity that you have to listen to yourself that will increase your self assuredness that these things happen in the perfect timing that when you, there's going to be some day that you're like, I, I can't, I got, I have to. And that is going to happen. But you can speed that up just a little bit by hearing my message that you have, have within you everything that you need to accomplish this, to step into this new thing. And it's sooner than right now, your thinking mind is telling you it, it should be. What about you? [01:15:15] Speaker B: I love that. I think the only thing I would add is that what I've found is that when you have knowing that you're supposed to do something, that you're, that your true self, your intuition is guiding you to your heart, it's guiding you to do something. The longer you wait in that waiting energy and the more you're, you start gathering data and opinions from everyone else, the harder it becomes to just take that leap. And the metaphor I always use to explain this to people is like say, let's say you decided to jump out of an airplane and you, you're right on the edge and you're like, okay, I'm gonna do it. It, I know I'm gonna do it or I wanna do it. [01:15:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:00] Speaker B: And then if you stay there and you don't jump, the long you wait at that edge, the harder it's gonna feel to jump. And what I actually have witnessed in so many clients or just people that have come to me for like magic sessions is that they're at this place where their intuition was guiding them to do something a while ago and now they're shut down and in a place of a little bit of like a shutdown, kind of numb despair, hopeless energy. And I think that's kind of the body's wisdom of saying like when we, when we deny ourselves what our heart really longs for, we block our own life force energy. We block our literal energy, like our physical energy, and we become less energized in day to day life. We become rundown, exhausted, adrenal fatigue, and life stops lighting us up. And sometimes, like when I'm coaching someone or something, if I, if I can lead them to discover what it was, like, what was that initial decision? What was your intuition guiding you to do? And then they realize it. And I've, I've, I've done this in my own life. Like when I've been feeling intuitively guided to do something, even if I'm fucking terrified. Because they still get terrified. [01:17:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:16] Speaker B: Even like, even though I've made big decisions, as soon as I do it, all of that energy is liberated and I feel even. I'm scared shitless. At least my energy is moving and I feel alive and lit up. So what I always tell my clients is like, listen, if your intuition is guiding you to something and you are like, even you are just a, just past the line of like, okay, I'm pretty sure I want to do this, I'm going to do this. Just do it as soon as you possibly can. [01:17:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:17:51] Speaker B: Like, don't wait. Because every minute that you wait past that point where you've decided on some level, even if it's so small, you start losing energy. [01:18:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:00] Speaker B: And it starts getting harder and harder. And something that I just told my students in my intuition class the other day is like, if you're in that point where you're like, yeah, I've been knowing I should do something for a while and I've been dragging my heels. I really love Mel Robbins. 5, 4, 3, 2. One rule with this, where if you get a burst of inspiration or a sudden like just surge of energy, or sometimes you can actually facilitate this by doing a hard workout or doing something really creative, but you just get a little burst of energy. Just say 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and then do it like right then, you know, like, don't wait, like send the text or like whatever it is to move into that decision. [01:18:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:38] Speaker B: Do it while you're at a peak of energy because as soon as that drops off, it'll feel hard again. [01:18:44] Speaker A: Yeah. I heard like one time. This is loosely related, but I heard one time a meditation teacher say that ever, ever he felt compelled in any way, shape and form to be generous, he had a practice of doing it right away. [01:18:57] Speaker B: Oh yeah, I love that. [01:18:58] Speaker A: And I, like, I think that's Sort of like a subtle way of practicing some of these behaviors is like, because. Because you never regret generosity. Like, generosity, especially like just giving something that you have the capacity to give, it always feels good, you know, And. But so often we talk ourselves out of it, and so that's. There are these small ways in which we can benefit others and also cultivate this capacity within ourselves to be able to listen to those nudges. And those are just the last thing I want to say, too, is be careful who you surround yourself by. [01:19:27] Speaker B: Yes. [01:19:28] Speaker A: Because if you're surrounded by people that are reiterating the narrative, that that's not crazy. That's a wild idea. I hope that works out for you. Yeah. That's gonna make it a lot that. [01:19:38] Speaker B: Works out for you. [01:19:39] Speaker A: I mean, how many times we all heard that, you know, like, good, cool. You're doing that, you know, like that. That. That is a recipe to talk you out of making the choice. So honestly, find people that will be supportive of your decisions. [01:19:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And if you don't have someone like that, then don't literally just don't tell anyone. [01:19:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:55] Speaker B: And just do it. [01:19:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:58] Speaker B: Yeah. So true. Thank you for joining us today on this episode of Conversations on Expansion. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a five stars wherever you are listening. And don't forget to follow or subscribe to the show so you know when new episodes drop. If you feel like this episode would benefit someone that you know, be sure to pass it along to them. Check out the show notes below for more information on Davin and I. You can find our other podcast as well as our websites in the show notes below. You can find [email protected] and myself, Stephanie, at thetransformationschool.com thanks again for tuning in. Until next time.