2: Are You Standing at an Empty Well?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Yeah. So I was thinking this morning about what we could talk about, and I pulled an Oracle card. And the card I pulled was called Empty well, time to replenish. And the idea here behind this card was it's like if you keep coming back to a well in your life again and again and again to find what you're looking for, to find the nourishment you want or the friendship that you want, or the relationship that you want, or the opportunity that you want, but the well is actually dry. It's empty. [00:00:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:30] Speaker A: And needing to have the recognition of this, isn't it? And it's not going to give me what I'm looking for. How many times do I have to come back to this well. [00:00:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:00:45] Speaker A: And try to draw something from it? [00:00:48] Speaker B: Maybe if I just stay long enough. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And I see this all the time, of course, with my clients, and I'm sure you with. With yours, and just people in our lives. Right. Of a reluctance to see what's going on. And to be fair, I mean, I know pastimes in my life where, especially before I did a lot of personal transformation work where I was in these really toxic relationships. And I kept. I mean, I'm thinking of like one somebody I was dating at one point, and I kept. It's like I could see his potential, you know, and so I kept. I kept coming back and wanting more and wanting this and wanting that, and it was super toxic. And he was never really giving me what I need, but he would pay a lot of, like, lip service and kind of like try and convince me of. Of things and gaslight me. And it was very. It was a very messy relationship. But I remember going to a friend at one point and telling her, like, oh, it's not. You know, he's not. He's not giving me what I need. And, you know, it was probably like the 30th time I'd come to her, and I just remember this look coming over her of, oh, my God, like, how many times do I. Am I gonna have to listen? [00:01:57] Speaker B: You gotta go. [00:01:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And I just. [00:01:59] Speaker B: We've all been there. As a friend. We've all been there. Yeah. [00:02:03] Speaker A: I saw, like, it. I really clocked the kind of almost disgust in her face. And I was like, whoa, what am I not seeing? And that's. That's kind of the thing is, like, a lot of times we go to these wells and we are the last one to see. [00:02:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:19] Speaker A: That it's not going to give us what we need. [00:02:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:24] Speaker A: So I think where I Want to go with it is kind of both of us talk about how. How we now in our lives, where we're at, start to clock, start to really feel like, okay, hold on, this isn't. This isn't giving me what I need or something is off here, or how do you know when the well is dry? [00:02:45] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. Well, it's a. It is a very complicated, you know, question in many ways, because first of all, everyone has this experience, you know, whether it be work, your job, a relationship. You know, I think one of the jokes that I sort of make about my own self and my story, particularly working in a. I worked for a university, and I felt like that Sex and the City quote where it's like, he's just not that into you. Like, but that was like me trying to get the universe. Like, I think if I. They don't see my talent, they don't see my potential, they don't see that I'm worth more money. And I kept going to, like, higher ups and like, and it was like, no, they're not that into. Like, they never were that into you. But it was me trying, in hindsight, it was me trying to project onto the situation what I, you know, should have been looking for elsewhere to begin with. But it. But it was complicated because I had to get rejected a lot of times to actually be alerted to that reality. And so now I see. I always joke with people. I'm like, it's like you're. You're trying to get a boyfriend to love you that has never promised that he would love you. You know, in this situation, it's like you just keep going back. But the other thing I remember a therapist, and I'm curious if on your take of this one time, a therapist told me that, like, behavior is always truth. And a lot of times, like when you said, I see the potential, we aren't actually responding to someone or something's behavior. Like, we're responding to what they. We think they want them to think or what we think this has the potential or the possibility of being. And if you're not responding out of the truth of the behavior of the moment, it's difficult to actually take inspired action. You're always going to be taking, like, speculative, you know, and you will keep sort of circling around. And so. Yeah. Does that ring true to you when I say that, like, that behavior? [00:04:39] Speaker A: Yeah. In fact, I realized when I started doing personal transformation work that that was a pattern of mine. Not just in intimate relationships, but every relationship I was in, I was always Just look. And this is very common, I think, especially in women where you aren't even in a relationship with the person. You're in a relationship with the person's potential. [00:04:58] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:04:59] Speaker A: And I don't think that's. [00:05:00] Speaker B: I don't think that's gendered at all. I think. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Okay, okay. [00:05:04] Speaker B: I think gay men love that. [00:05:05] Speaker A: Ye. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's something that I started doing in my, in my current relationship where a lot of times I did feel like early on, for the first few years, the well was dry. Like I. I kept actually intuitively asking myself if I should leave the relationship because I was like, this is not a fair. This is not a good give and take is. I started looking at just the behavior because, yeah, I tend to gravitate towards very like intellectuals. And so they're very good at saying what I want to hear. And they're very. I mean, they can be very good at gaslighting ultimately. And so I start, I started essentially with my current relationship years ago. I started saying like, I don't, I don't even want to hear anything that you have to say. Like, the only thing that matters is your behavior, is what you're actually doing. Because there was a lot of like. And this isn't just with my current relationship in the past, but also all past relationships. It was kind of like if somebody says, does or says something shitty to you and then they say like, that's not what I meant. [00:06:04] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:05] Speaker A: And it's like, cool. I don't care what you meant. This is actually what you did. [00:06:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I will say with a caveat though, that when, when someone is in a dramatic, like their backs against the wall. Like I have this story in my relationship where I know that my partner said some things that he did not mean and it was a total, you know, fear response in the moment. But, but I do, I agree with you in that there is a cause. I would say I'm guilty of this. Like, I can talk. I can talk forever about intentions. And like, I'm really good at putting language to feelings. Like that's something, a skill that I have. But it's like it only takes you so far. It doesn't take you far at all, actually. You know, and so there is this reality, like, how do you feel when you're with the person? [00:06:53] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I was just going to say was like, the thing I think pretty much everyone does in those situations is like, we don't trust our bodies. [00:07:00] Speaker B: Yes. [00:07:01] Speaker A: And so in those situations I would Kind of be like, I don't care what your intention was. I care what you actually did. But at the same time, I'm also feeling into, like, the energetics and reading the energy and the emotions of the moment. So. Well, I guess another caveat to that is sometimes, and I see this in people's relationships, especially before their relationships kind of become more conscious and they're. Two people aren't really thinking about themselves or their patterns or behaviors, and they're just kind of acting automatically, unconsciously, is. There's a lot of projection going on. So one person will say, like, well, you did this. And what the other person did actually, like, had nothing to do with person B. But person B is sensitive to something or has a past of something, and so then they're projecting. So it's. It's layered. I guess my point is, is like, it's really layered. I was always thinking about, what's my role in this? [00:07:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:57] Speaker A: But I think the important thing there is if you're going to be the kind of person where you are conscious and you're thinking, okay, what's my role in this relationship? And how am I contributing to this? Because it's always two people. I mean, that's that. And that's something that in. In all of those toxic relationships, I was the other person playing the role. There was something about me that was gravitating towards that toxicity and was at, like, vibrating at that level. [00:08:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:21] Speaker A: Otherwise I would have bailed the first time something toxic happened. But I didn't. So there was something in me that was, like, drawn to that. [00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:30] Speaker A: So when you become conscious and you start doing personal transformation work, you really have to ask yourself, like, is this other person also doing work? [00:08:38] Speaker B: Yes. Right. That growth together, growing together. [00:08:41] Speaker A: That. [00:08:42] Speaker B: That is. You know, I'm now with my partner for 15 years, and we have teetered on the brink a couple times. And I just. The other day was just like, standing there thinking with him. I was like, man, this is the best we've ever been. And it's totally that thing that people say when they've been together a long time. But you kind of can't imagine it when you're early on or you're. You're not too far from the brink. And. But there is this. That's why I think this conversation is so interesting and complicated because there is this value in sticking it out, if you can be clear in what it is that you're sticking out and what you're seeing. Because I. I see that part of our Success right now is we've overcome so much, and we like the thought of having to get. Bring anyone else up to speed on the things that we know together seems like insurmountable. But also there's an enjoyment that we have of our life because we have stuck it out and gotten through some of the. Some of the bullshit of it all. But I think that there is this piece around. We're all always doing the thing that we think is the smartest thing in the moment. We're all doing the thing that we've assessed to be the right thing for us, however off base it might be. And that's always the thing that's bugged me the most in relationship, because I'm like, why aren't you thinking about me? I'm like, I know you're behaving like this because of you. That's the problem. I want it to be because of me. That's like my little kid wound. That's like, like, but what about me? But it is true. Like, we all are making the choices that we're making that because of our past experience and because of what the skills that we have to deal with the current experience. Experience and whatever it is that we've deduced in our head would be the right thing to do in the moment. And if you can create enough space to separate your emotional reaction from that, you really can see clearly how it is that you want to respond to what has actually happened. But the space thing, if you're circling, if you're circling, if you're circling, if you're coming back, if you're coming back, if you're coming back, it's impossible to see clearly. I think that that's. And that's why people get caught in jobs forever, because you just don't ever get enough space to see outside of it. [00:10:49] Speaker A: What do you mean by space? Do you mean time? You mean reflecting? [00:10:52] Speaker B: Probably. I mean, one of the. The transformative experiences of my life was to do what I called a radical sabbatical, where I quit coaching and teaching for three months. And now I've coached a number of people through doing something so similar. And it's not a lot of time. [00:11:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:10] Speaker B: But in the moment, like when you're thinking about income and you're thinking about. But what that does is it sort of forces you into a different relationship with the thing that you are having a tumultuous affair with. And it gives you a sense of perspective that you could not get when you're that close. You know, like, if you And I are standing face to face and, you know, our noses are touching. I can't see all of you. Like, I don't even know what the whole thing looks like. And that's what happens if I go to the same job every day, you know, And I recognize that this is a point of privilege. Right. Like, that you have to have the ability and the capacity to do this. But it's so hard to see clearly when your face is smushed up against the other face. [00:11:51] Speaker A: Yeah. I've done that so many times. Taken little trips for myself or sabbaticals or just to get in my own energy and to. Yeah. Relate to something differently and see it from a different perspective. But if that's not a possibility and. Or if you've never done that before, because I could see some people being like, okay, I'm gonna go skiing. And like. And like, nothing. Like, nothing's changed. Like, I feel the same way. [00:12:17] Speaker B: Yeah. I had a nice weekend. [00:12:19] Speaker A: So you have to also, like, it's not just like you go shoot to shit somewhere. You have to go and reflect and, like, journal and do whatever you need to do to open something up in you to really think about. Is this aligned? Is this the right thing? Or connect with your intuition or whatever it may be. So it's not, I guess, just like space in itself. It's also the added process of reflection, but also there's processes. You know, I'm a fan of processes to do this. [00:12:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:46] Speaker A: Which is like in. In my workshops, like, people will come in and I offer them all of these reflections and subconscious tools and things to create that without having to pause work or pause their relationship where they can look at it and in. In a different. From a different perspective, in a different way. So I think there's multiple ways, but I. I totally agree with. There does need to be a pause and a reflection versus just the runaway train. [00:13:16] Speaker B: Well, another little mantra, you know, that I think about a lot is when you don't know what to do, don't do anything. Like, stop. [00:13:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:25] Speaker B: And I don't that in like a grand sense. But I mean, literally stop for a moment, take a breath, pause. Because there's a. That space that. You know, I used to have a teacher that called it a pregnant pause. Right. Like, that there was something to be birthed in that moment. And that's what happens when we start to spin out. Now, I will say the other thing though, too, is like, if you are like, let's say codependent or fearful of, you know, you really Live in a place of lack, fearful around the financial repercussions of your choice, that if you did take a lot of space, that could totally throw you off balance in a way that would be difficult to, you know, would feel insurmountable. So I'm. I'm not saying that the answer is always to just like jet, but I will say my experience is if I can get just enough room. I mean, I had like a. I had an interpersonal conflict at the end of the year last year with some people that were working on an organization with, together. And the way it ended really hurt my feelings. Like I was deep in my feelings about it. And it's funny because I think that was probably five months ago now, but I really was thinking about it for months, like it would pop up all the time. And I just recognized the other day that I'm not anymore. You know, and it's such a. It's. It's really the test of time. Like the. I'm so grateful. Grateful to have the time. And then actually that space then allowed me to reach out to one of those people to try to find some connection and reconciliation. And if I would have tried to do it in the moment, which was totally my instinct is to like, like, let's go. Let's figure this out. Let's sort this out. I don't want any bad blood. We don't. Any grudges. We don't, you know, like, I'm like, that's my person. That's how I tend to want to deal with things. And it's not often the best, but it is easy to tell yourself a story in most of these situations. The two that come to my head most often are job, professional and. Or relationship that if you left it, it would be catastrophic. That usually the outcome that the reason that you're hovering or circling is because you imagine that any other possibility would be catastrophic. And that I think is the, the thing that's so interesting to pull apart and actually like, you know, you talk about journaling, like, what are the worst case scenarios? [00:15:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:47] Speaker B: You know, they often come back to survival. Like a sense of will I survive? [00:15:52] Speaker A: Yes. [00:15:53] Speaker B: I don't know. Do you see, like, themes that people often land on when they're thinking catastrophically about the outcome of a situation? [00:16:01] Speaker A: I find that people haven't actually actualized those. They haven't made them conscious. And that is what is causing them to spin out. It's the, the nervous system response and the unconscious aspect of it that is causing them to grip in a Frantic, like, frenetic attachment to the person, the situation, the job, whatever it is. And so, you know, as I'm coaching them, it's a slow down pullback. What are you, like, what? Let's just worst case scenario this for a second. Like, what. What would happen? Because if it's so useful to just look at that for a moment and be like, okay, can I. Would I survive? Yeah, worst case scenario. But even I find when people do have a cognitive, yes, I can survive, that their body is saying, no, I can't. [00:16:55] Speaker B: Right, exactly. Yeah. [00:16:56] Speaker A: And so even if they're like, no, I know I'd be fine. I can see when I'm talking to them that their body doesn't believe that at all. And so it's their body and their nervous system that's keeping them tethered to the current situation. And so then the work really becomes going deeper to the root of what. What root issue is this triggering? And it's usually some sort of attachment that happened long ago, like ruptured attachment with a caregiver or something terrible that happened a while ago. And a bracing against feeling that terrible feeling again. [00:17:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:33] Speaker A: I actually heard this amazing quote the other day of what is one of the signposts of someone who has experienced trauma, childhood trauma. And this expert said, as an adult, trying to get a difficult person to love them. [00:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Yeah. [00:17:51] Speaker A: And I was like, oh, my God, yeah, like four years. That was my thing, like, or just to really see me, like, for who I actually was. You know, I was like constantly going to people who really couldn't see me and wanting them to actually see me. [00:18:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:08] Speaker A: And so then the. The way I heal that was looking deep, like, where did that come from? Like, where in my childhood was I not seen? Where was I not loved by a difficult person? And why do I keep replaying that out again and again and again? And of course, that takes a lot of deep, deep work to change that. But that does require oftentimes outside assistance. [00:18:32] Speaker B: Yes. [00:18:33] Speaker A: For people to work through that, whether that be like a coach or a therapist. A therapist that does, like, really deep work. But, I mean, I think that that's helpful to know, though, that a lot of the frantic feelings, if somebody is listening and they're circling a well and they feel like, okay, you know what? I don't know if this relationship is giving me everything I need. I don't know if this job. I don't know if this situation, whatever it. That the frantic attachment to it and the desperate need for it to work is Coming from somewhere else. [00:19:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. Have you ever heard of Lindsay Gibson? [00:19:08] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I mean, one of her books, Healing from Emotionally Immature Parents. [00:19:13] Speaker B: Yes. [00:19:13] Speaker A: I recommend to all my clients. [00:19:15] Speaker B: Funny how, like, it gives me goosebumps to think, because I. When I came across her in just a couple podcast interviews, I was like, this is just like, the clearest, most simple way of articulating. But one of the hallmarks of emotional immaturity is that the emotional. A mature person will not make sense. [00:19:32] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:19:32] Speaker B: In their responses to things. And I think about this a lot in relationship and even in work relationship, too. Because. Because a lot of times you're circling around trying to make sense. [00:19:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:41] Speaker B: Of what's happening. And they're doing everything to throw you off balance because if you were to make sense of it, it would expose them for who it is that they are. And I think that that's like a hallmark, often, of a smart person. And this is. You know, again, I always try to lead with my own propensities, but, you know, I'm. I'm desperate to make sense, often of wild behavior. And some of that's been useful. Right. Like, understanding people, being curious, being open. But some of it is like, no, that shit is crazy. Like. Like exit, abort, you know, leave. When someone's acting crazy. Like, leave. Yeah. [00:20:18] Speaker A: I want to pull. Focus on this for a second because I feel like it's. It's actually so important, and it can help people so much if they can really take this in. Because when we say crazy, we're not necessarily meaning like, someone's throwing shit, but it's like when you are trying to connect with someone and maybe you've had an argument or they've again disappointed you, or something has just happened and you're trying to connect with them, explain things to them, and it feels like they're not getting it. And there's almost this. Like, you're getting confused. [00:20:51] Speaker B: Yes. [00:20:51] Speaker A: In the conversation. Like, there's an energy of confusion that's present. That's the sign of a emotionally immature person that is actually not in even the slightest trying to understand what you're saying. [00:21:06] Speaker B: That that is exactly it. And that was such a big aha for me when I heard her say that. That. Because I. I actually used to think that it was like I wasn't compassionate enough or I wasn't empathetic enough. And, you know, and if you were to take me out of any other situation, I know I'm a deeply compassionate person. It's something I spent a lifetime cultivating. I Know, I feel empathetically, but you catch me in one of those situations with someone who's emotionally immature, I will quickly turn that story on myself. Like, I need to be doing something different to understand the situation. Well, understanding her work allowed me to be like, you know what? I'm gonna tap out here. [00:21:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:43] Speaker B: You can get it together, and then if there's a possibility for more conversation. But if it. If it sounds wild or if you're just confused. [00:21:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And we think. We, as the peacemakers, think. Okay, if I just explain it in the right way. [00:21:57] Speaker B: Yes, I can use. And that's. That is exactly what I was saying earlier. It's like I have all the words. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. It didn't work those first, like, 10 times. So if I can just like, okay, let me try this 11th time. Let me just explain it in the right way, like why this is important or what, Whatever. Yeah. I actually, after I learned that, I started practicing feeling into the energetics of that. I mean, this is something that I just do in general is I. I fine tune my, like, intuitive perception of energetics. So it's like the energy of situations or people or what's happening behind the scenes of an energy. So I'm just always reading energy. So I actually started tuning into that chaotic energy. So. And it has a very specific energetic signature to it. Like when starts to talk in circles and create an energy of confusion, you can feel that in your body. And it. I mean, it feels like a confusion. It feels like a, wait, what the fuck is happening here? And a lot of times, if those people are really skilled at doing that, they'll turn it on you too. So, like, somehow the things that they did, they'll start blaming you for, and it'll be very disorienting, and it's gaslighting. But the interesting thing about it is, like, I would say probably, like 90% of the time, they don't really know they're doing it. They're in an energy of confusion themselves. [00:23:24] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a coping mechanism. [00:23:25] Speaker A: Totally. [00:23:26] Speaker B: And that's actually like, what's illuminating about this way of thinking is that then you can actually feel compassionate toward the. [00:23:33] Speaker A: Person and stop it at the same time. [00:23:36] Speaker B: And again, if you give enough space, because the body part is really important and the energy part, because. Because I think for me, personally, what I can speak to is that when you're in that moment, that feeling, the embodied feeling of the response to what is happening is your best and most reliable cue about your possibility of success moving forward in the conversation if you don't feel at ease. And it's not to say that there isn't tension, but think about, like, if you're out for drinks with a friend or friends and you have like a heated conversation, but it feels within, like, the bounds of disagreement versus when you're in that sort of conversation that feels like. Like you could be on the verge of tears. Right. Or that you needed to get out of there. That sort of sense within yourself that is a hallmark of an experience. Often with someone who's employing these tactics to protect themselves from being revealed because they're scared shitless. You know, they're scared. That's. That's such a lovely thing to know about someone. You know, it's like, oh, it really comes from that. That deep fear that we all have to a certain extent, but done certain types of work. You know how to handle it. You know how to communicate in the midst of it. You know how to relate to people and connect to people around it. You know how to show your cards and be vulnerable. But I would say emotional immaturity is also a hallmark of a difficulty in leaving relationships. [00:24:58] Speaker A: Say more. [00:25:00] Speaker B: So these components that we're talking about are sort of the hallmark patterns of going back to the well again and again, again, specifically when we're talking about relationships, because it's that desperation to try to figure it out and then coming back and not being able to. [00:25:16] Speaker A: You're saying the person that is. Keeps going back to the well is also experiencing emotional immaturity. [00:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah, right. I mean, we all do. Like, we're. None of us are fully evolved. That's. I want to be clear on that, too. It's not. It's not something that you evolve entirely out of, although you have the tools to manage that. And you can see, folks, that. [00:25:35] Speaker A: I mean, I think there are some people that do evolve out of emotional immaturity. [00:25:38] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, I'll take that. [00:25:39] Speaker A: You know, like, I look at, like, Eckhart Tolle, he's pretty emotionally mature. You know what I mean? [00:25:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:25:44] Speaker A: Think that that can be. That can be something that you aspire to more and more and more. [00:25:49] Speaker B: That is my aspiration. Yeah, yeah, totally my aspiration. Because it doesn't feel good. I mean, that's the bottom line is none of that. It doesn't feel good. It's also in stark contrast, I think, if you think about relationships, like every relationship has ups and downs, trials and tribulations, but there's that sense. And you were talking about this collective growth that, that to Me is so big because you don't have to be growing in the same direction even. You don't have to be growing in the same path. You don't have to be growing in the same way, but you have to have a sense that you're on this path together, growing and shifting and changing. And when you do that, there's an ease, even amidst the difficulty that in. And I think about my best friends, like, that's the contrast to what we're talking about is, like, when you can be with someone and there's that just ease. [00:26:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is a trust, too. [00:26:43] Speaker B: Totally. [00:26:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. So we've talked about. If you're wondering, like, all right, am I at a well, or do I keep going back to this person or this thing or the situation, this job, looking for something that I'm not getting, that the first step is to take some space, at least pause, do some reflection. Worst case scenario, it. If you can, if you have the tools or the support, identify what it is that could be keeping you in the charged emotions around it and the fear or keeping you tethered to that situation. And then also looking out for these signposts of, like, well, is this person even capable? Do they have the emotional maturity? Are they even capable of giving me what I need? And are they even on the same path as me? Do they even want to be on the same path as me? [00:27:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:33] Speaker A: So those are all signs around, like, trying to identify, am I at a dry well or is there still something for me in this well? What about. I almost want to say just the. The action of walking away from that dry well, once you realize maybe it is dry, what has made walking away easier for you in the past? [00:27:53] Speaker B: I wish I had a better way of articulating this, but the first thing that comes to mind is it just always feels right. And it's not like, at that point, it feels right. Like, it feels like the next thing you have to do. And that's not to belittle that. It also feels very difficult. But you just. There's a sense of deep knowing that this was the next thing that I had to do. I think about leaving jobs and having left a number of situations like that. It's like, I just had this vision of, like, walking out the door and not wanting to go back. Like, you know, and I don't know how to articulate other than that there's a point. There's like, a tipping point where you get there and, like, you can't even go back and visit because you're so done. Like, you're just so done. It was the right thing to do, to be done. Now, maybe when space occurs, you can go back and visit and it has a different relationship, but there's that feeling of being done. And that's where I sense with folks that they often can't imagine that that feeling exists, you know, And I. I just being on the other side, I'm like, I don't. I don't know how to say this to you other than that I'm so glad I left that. And. And not. Not even an ill will sort of way. It's just like, no, it was so the next thing that I need to do. But then there's this other thing too. It's like, you just get just enough. Again, here I am with space. You get just enough space, and you realize that it opened up some space that allowed something else or something else that you could have imagined would pop in, comes in, and then you're. Then you. Then you do tend to go, man, look at all that time I spent not being open to this possibility. But I suspect that this moment arrives differently for different people. And I suspect that some folks are pretty expert at ignoring it. But it's a deep feeling where you're like, I gotta get. I gotta get out of here. I gotta get out. It's done. [00:29:44] Speaker A: I love that you brought in the something better comes in. Because I actually find, other than the, you know, the fear of something ending and how people are going to survive that it's. It's the fear of, like, well, what if there's nothing better? Or, like, my clients transform tremendously in my courses. And something a lot of them go through is like, I don't relate to my friends anymore. [00:30:07] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:30:08] Speaker A: You know, And I tell them, like, yeah, that's something everyone goes through when they go through a significant amount of personal transformation. But I also find in them that there's a lot of reluctance to create that space with those friends and create space for new friends to come in, because they're like, well, they can't. They cannot imagine, especially for those of them that have had these friends for years, they cannot imagine a new community would come in. So they hold on to the old that actually isn't energizing them, isn't filling up, is a totally empty well. But what they don't realize is, like, when we hold on to the old, we're taking up the energetic space and we're keeping ourselves tethered to an old version of ourselves. We're Stop. We're essentially stopping ourselves from manifesting the new thing that we want to come in. And it like, you have to. In most cases, I'll say you have to leave the old before the new will come. [00:31:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:05] Speaker A: And it is kind of a leap of faith. And, and sometimes if you've reached the moment you're speaking to where you're just like, you're so done that you're like, I don't even care if the new comes in. I'm just, no, I'm done with this Is. Is great. But for a lot of people, I don't see them reach that point. And yet they still know. [00:31:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:20] Speaker A: So it's like they haven't reached the I'm done moment, like the, the line in the sand. But they have a knowing of, I know this isn't right and I know I want something better, but I also just don't believe something better could come. [00:31:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:33] Speaker A: And then they'll stay. And then they. And then that is so energetically when you stay in something longer than you should, there's nothing that will drain your life force energy like that. [00:31:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and I want to say the converse of that is I feel sympathy for folks who leave things. I mean, I've witnessed this a number of times where folks leave things and then that feeling of being utterly lost, you know, But I also, like, as an outsider, recognize it as a part of their process of, you know, that they actually had to bump up against that feeling. You know, I. I experienced that myself when I was doing my sabbatical. I. It was dark night of the soul. I was like, who am I? You know, do I matter? Does anyone care about me? Will I ever make money again? You know, I had all the questions, right? Like, and I'm so grateful to have had those questions because now I know that I can handle them. I didn't know that before that, but I was able to confront them. But I wanted to say, in my world, one thing that I often will coach people to do is, you know, a lot of people have dreams of being creative for a living or being creative more in their lives. And they don't know how to create space for it. They don't know how to let go of the things that are maybe consuming so much space. And I'll have them do like little exercises like go buy an outfit that they would like to perform in or just like start to put together a shopping cart of clothes that you could imagine yourself on stage with or get like a haircut, you know, these sort of Physical cues, embodied cues, where you start to see yourself differently. Because I will say, what you brought up is so important that you are going to have a really difficult time creating the change you want to change. If the relationships that you have stay the same. It's actually one of the biggest things, but one of the things that happens. Like, for instance, if you were to get your hair cut, the people closest to you are going to comment on it, and you have to get used to that. And you have to actually test the water. The ones that are gonna be like, you look awesome. That's so crazy. I can't believe you did that. That's fun. And the folks that, like, I liked your old hair better. Because the folks that liked your old hair better. I mean, I'm making a really broad generalization here, but they're going to have a hard time with the other changes that you want to make. Yeah, sometimes that's your partner, you know, Sometimes that's like your mom. Like, that's what makes it really complex. That's why often people are afraid. Why don't people think I'm weird? I don't want people to, you know, put me in that category of sometimes people have these crazy associations, like, if they dress funky, that people will think they're irresponsible or they can't hold down a job. You know, like stuff that you're just like, I don't know where that came from. Like, who says? But. But I hear this often where what seemingly for someone maybe a little further down the path seems insignificant to that person in the moment seems like a big fucking deal. And so to just take those sort of small gestures and try them on for size, that can be the thing that sort of moves you toward the door, where you go, well, if you don't, you know, I see how she's going to respond to that. So that has to inform how it is that I relate to her. Or you got your folks. You know, I have talked about this in the past that, like, you make a big change, and the people around you are like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. That seems like that's the next thing. And you thought it was such a huge, monumental shift, and they're like, whatever, you know, I remember getting my ears pierced, and it was like one of those things that seemed like such a big deal to me. And then people were like, okay, that's what you want to do. Fine. It's like, no thing, you know, but in your mind, it's like, can be this whole story around that. So Those small incremental shifts. You know, like you. I think about being in a relationship, a codependent relationship, it might be that you just go skiing to start it off. Like, what is the thing that you do to try to turn the dial just a little, catch a glimpse of yourself outside of this situation? [00:35:27] Speaker A: Yes, fully. And I mean, that would be skiing in a different way. Right. Like that you. You're using that example as, like, a pattern interrupt here. [00:35:34] Speaker B: Yes. [00:35:35] Speaker A: Versus, like, the initial stuff of taking space, but, like. Yeah, for sure. I mean, yes. Moving more and more into your authentic self incrementally. And that's a nice, loving way to do that. Especially if the task before you of making a big change seems too monumental. For sure. [00:35:55] Speaker B: At your job, could you take unpaid leave for a week? Is that a possibility? You know, to try. What does that feel like in your body? To not be paid for a week? Because it's scary. AF at first, but once you have the experience, you might be surprised at what you have the capacity for, what you have the ability to be in. There are these sort of small ways. Now, I'll tell you the other thing, though. I think a lot of people won't even let themselves do these small things because they know the genie will get out of the bottle, you know? [00:36:27] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, if that happens, if that's somebody listening, then that that is where they're at, you know, I guess it's like, yes. And I would say, honestly to them, like, can you go even smaller than. Can you, like, just go to it? Like, can you go try a new coffee shop today? [00:36:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:36:42] Speaker A: Like these, like, an even smaller little pattern interrupt that feels safe to your body right now where you're exploring. Like, if I keep going back to this dry well, is there more in the world than the dry well? [00:36:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:57] Speaker A: And just challenge yourself to look for signs that there is more life that's not only there, but waiting to come to you. And if you release the suction cup to the dry well and start broadening your perspective and sense of self and just opening up to, like, receiving in other ways. Like, could you get these little signs and then take them as signs? Right. Like when something lovely happens and then maybe start to use that as a momentum of, like, okay, if this came to me, and this came to me, and this was good, and this was good, maybe there is something better beyond this dry well. [00:37:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think the other thing, too, is just a reminder you don't have to suffer. Like, you know that so often we land up in these Situations, and we just think it's our, our lot in life, you know, that, that, that is. Must be part of your journey, your story that, you know, I'm terrible at relationships. I always pick the wrong relationship. I'm bad at jobs. It's like that is such a toxic narrative. And it's a way often of justifying staying in the space that you're in. What if your destiny is thriving? What if your destiny is flourishing? What if your destiny is being a rock star? You know, I was gonna say too, if. And I'm very aware that one would have a difficult time doing this if they were in a dysregulated nervous system state. But, you know, we talked about the first thing that might be useful is to write out worst case scenarios. The other thing to do is to write out best case scenarios, you know, like to really lean into what. What would be the dream alternative? You know, and again, that, that it can be really difficult if you're too. If your face is smushed up against the situation to even see that you might not. You might say, I don't know. I don't know. Fair enough. You might not know right now, but as a part of this exercise, on your ski trip, when you're journaling and you're wearing a funky haircut and your rock star outfit, you might also start to dream, journal a little bit and see, you know, what can my life look like if I weren't suffering, if I weren't struggling, if things felt easy, if I felt free, if I felt open, if I was surrounded by love, if people connected with me, that shared, shared interests, that people that. If I was in a relationship only with people that wanted to see me flourish. Yeah. Like, what would that be like? What would that be like? And it's very possible. Very possible. [00:39:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And I would say if you. If you know what you don't want, if you know that you're going to this empty well and you're not getting what you want, then you at least have some indication of what you do want. [00:39:25] Speaker B: Totally. [00:39:26] Speaker A: So if you can at the very least start with, well, okay, like you could write on a piece of paper, I don't want these things that are happening to me, and then just reverse them in a column right across from it. [00:39:36] Speaker B: Yep. [00:39:36] Speaker A: Then that means this is what I do want, and start to. I think that is a great exercise to start to get really clear about what it is that you do want based on what you don't want. And then maybe first just ask yourself, like, is this Is this actually possible in. In this current situation to receive this from this well? [00:39:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. If you want water and it's dry. [00:39:59] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. I mean, but, you know, it's like a nice practice there of, like, this is what I don't want. This is what I do want. Okay. Is this possible based on all the behavior of this person or based on the way my job has been going for the last two years, or based on the situation, or is. Is it really possible to get some water here? [00:40:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:18] Speaker A: And if it's not, where could I get this water? [00:40:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Abraham Hicks says every conversation is two conversations. What you want and what you don't want. And I think about that a lot because I think that often we get stuck in believing we're in a singular conversation. And there's always. There's always two ends to the stick. There's always this thing that you're picking up and you're looking at and you're perusing and you're holding the stick up and you're only seeing the part that's above your hand and you're going. You're thinking, that's the whole stick, but there's the rest of the stick below your hand that's telling you just as much information to lean into the metaphor. It might be the watering hole stick. It leads you towards the water. [00:40:55] Speaker A: Yes, true. Yeah. And I think the last thing we can close with on this is like, I think the thing that holds us back sometimes is not only is this possible, but am I worthy of it? [00:41:09] Speaker B: Yep. Right, Right. [00:41:11] Speaker A: And I think that's where giving it to yourself first comes in. [00:41:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:16] Speaker A: And showing yourself that you're worthy and that you're worthy enough for you to give it to yourself. And when you can start to do that, give it to yourself again and again and again. Like, okay, anytime you go out with your partner, you're not able to have fun because they're always complaining about something, but you just want to have fun. Okay, so you're not having fun. All right, Go have fun by yourself. [00:41:36] Speaker B: Right. [00:41:37] Speaker A: Give it to yourself again and again and again. And I will tell you from experience, not just with myself, but also working with clients, when you start to give yourself what you need again and again and again, you start to subconsciously believe that you're worthy of it. And it does shift something. And it helps you stand in your power more in that situation or with that person and be like, no, wait a minute. It's actually self love to say that I want more here. [00:42:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:03] Speaker A: Like, I, I Don't want to keep coming back to a dry well. I deserve water. [00:42:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And I will say too, you know, if you, if you don't do it, life has a way of doing it for you eventually. [00:42:14] Speaker A: Of what? Ruining it? Like, making it burn? Like exploding the well? [00:42:19] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Like, if you keep trying to drink, you know, from the dry well, you're gonna be thirsty. [00:42:24] Speaker A: Here's. Here's something that I will say. I actually don't think that's true sometimes. [00:42:30] Speaker B: Tell me more. [00:42:31] Speaker A: I. I think that it's true. This goes into a longer conversation. I'd love to do another podcast about it, but you and I are both life path nines, and I've seen this with nines. That, that life will push a person with a life path nine to continue transforming. It's like a non negotiable. [00:42:50] Speaker B: Okay. [00:42:50] Speaker A: Like that's why you came here, is to transform again and again and again. But I mean, we hear stories all the time of people on their deathbeds that have a life of regret. [00:43:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't. Yes. I don't mean that you're going to wake up to it. I mean, I mean that you're gonna suffer. [00:43:08] Speaker A: Well, yeah, but they're already suffering. Like. Yeah, well, when you just think of people, like, on their deathbeds that are like, oh, my God, I stayed in a lifeless, loveless marriage for the last 50 years. Or like, and they do stay, and it does get worse and worse and worse, and yet they do stay. [00:43:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:23] Speaker A: So it's like, yes, life could make it worse. You might get literally sick or you might like, yeah, your energy will drop, but that doesn't mean that you're gonna reach an I'm done moment. I think that a lot of people have to take some sort of initiative. [00:43:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I totally. I mean, I totally agree. I don't think that everyone. But let me say it like this. If your path feels tumultuous now and you stick around longer, it will likely get more tumultuous. [00:43:51] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. Yes. It's not gonna. It's. Well, it's not gonna get better on its own. [00:43:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it's not gonna alleviate. You're not gonna feel like, you know, and, and sometimes that tumult is dramatic. You know, it can be illness, it can be car accidents, it can be death, it can be loss, it can be financial ruin. You know, all of those things. [00:44:08] Speaker A: But I think it's important what you said in terms of. But you may not wake up to it, because I think this happens all the Time like I'll see this in clients lives. Like they did ignore that the well was dry and they kept going, going, going and then all these other things started crumbling around them, but they weren't at all relating it to the well being dry. [00:44:24] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. And, and well, let me say it like this. If you got more money, I've observed it's harder to make some of these choices. There are these things that like will convince you that you have safety and they blind you to, you know, we call them the golden handcuffs. It's like blind you to the cues, blind you to the reality. And that's what I'm saying. It's like there are these cues and they will accumulate. [00:44:48] Speaker A: Yeah, but I'm with you. [00:44:49] Speaker B: I'm not in any way disagreeing with you that I think that, you know, we're all called to a certain path and, and they vary dramatically from person to person. And I don't know though, I. If you're listening to this and there's even a twinge of not wanting to be on your deathbed regretting, like, please God, listen to the cues. [00:45:14] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [00:45:17] Speaker B: Okay. If someone is on the verge of leaving this dry well and you want to illuminate a path of hope for them, what do you say? [00:45:29] Speaker A: That this is going to go one of two ways. One, you're going to be in kind of like this, I'm done energy. You're going to walk away from this well and you're going to be magnetic as and amazing things are going to happen in a relatively short period of time where it's going to feel like you're going to be mind blown at how much better life can be and what you're attracting into your life. Or two, you're leaving the well, but you still have some things to work through and you are in some fear and you want to honor that sacred space and time where you're going to have to move through some difficult feelings, some difficult emotions. It's going to be hard, some things are going to come up, but that's an opportunity for you to grow and expand in that moment. And I promise you on the other side you will start to feel that magnetic energy where things that are better than you could have ever possibly imagined, I mean me and Davin both coming from that other side, like better than you could have ever imagined, will start happening to you. So if you're in that second camp of you have to go through some growth and it's gonna feel, it's gonna feel hard, it's gonna feel like that dark night of the soul after you leave something, just know that that's. That's normal half the time for that to happen, at least half, maybe more. And that it's just a period of time in your life and you are readying yourself for what is better on the other side. And in that interim period, you can give yourself what you need. So ask yourself what it is that you're ultimately looking for and start giving it to yourself. And, I mean, I promise you, you're gonna find a well full of water on the other side. [00:47:13] Speaker B: Yes. When I coach people on singing, I often use this imagery that if you were to ride a roller coaster. There are two ways to ride a roller coaster. You either grip the whole way and you hold on for dear life and hope you don't die, or you put your hands up in the air. [00:47:29] Speaker A: Yes. [00:47:30] Speaker B: Both ways. You're riding the roller coaster, you know, but they're two very different experiences. And I can tell you if you have it within you to put your hands up in the air, you will get off the roller coaster and go, oh, my God, that was amazing. And if you're gripping the whole way, you might not want to get on it again. So those are. Those are your options. And. And I've learned to put my hands up in the air, and it feels really good. [00:47:54] Speaker A: Even though it's hard. [00:47:55] Speaker B: Super hard. [00:47:56] Speaker A: Even though it's scary. Maybe even scarier. [00:47:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:00] Speaker A: More is going to come to you faster. [00:48:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:04] Speaker A: Thank you so much for joining us today for this episode of Conversations on Expansion. If you like the podcast, be sure to follow and subscribe so you do not miss future episodes. Also, share this episode with your family, with your friends, with your colleagues, anyone that you think could benefit. And don't forget to leave us a 5 stars. We so appreciate you. Thank you so much for tuning in. Until next time.